VATICAN COUNCIL II SUPPORTS THE DOGMA, FR.LEONARD FEENEY , THE POPES AND SAINTS

Jim says:

Again, your language seems to imply that if one does not receive Baptism and profess explicitly the Catholic faith and thus be a formal member of the visible Church—he cannot be saved.
Lionel: Correct. Every one on earth needs the baptism of water and Catholic Faith for salvation.

Jim says: There can be NO EXCEPTION TO THIS, you say.
Lionel: De facto (in reality) there can be no exception to this among the people I meet, among the people on earth in general.
This must not be confused with those saved implicitly by Jesus and who are known only to God. We cannot meet anyone on earth who is saved implicitly and whom we will know.
Hence there is no exception to everyone being a formal, explicit member of the Church for salvation.

Jim: That excludes the baptism of desire, which is also rendered meaningless by your stress on “IF”.
Lionel: The baptism of desire is meaningless if you consider it de facto, explicitly known in the present times and judge able. In its very nature it can only be accepted in principle and as a concept. It is de facto known only to God. When it is a reality it is known only to God. You cannot meet a person on the street saved with the baptism of desire.

Jim:
It is one thing to say that all are called to be Catholic, to have faith, baptism, and profess the Catholic faith, and that non-Catholics of various categories CAN BE SAVED; it is another to say “If anyone is saved with the baptism of desire”, leaving open the possibility that really NO ONE IS SAVED by that means.
Lionel: For us humans the baptism of desire is just a possibility, something acceptable. It is God who decides if someone is saved with the baptism of desire. I cannot say either way, that there were a certain number of baptisms of desire in Rome last month or there were none.

Jim: Your language remains quite confusing, and lacks the clarity and coherence of
Vatican II teaching. You try to defend it, but only muddle it further.
Lionel: It is important to note that the baptism of desire and all ‘implicit faith’ is known to God only and unknown to us in particular and this cannot be in conflict with the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus which says everyone on earth needs to be an explicit member of the Church for salvation.


We could then realize that Vatican Council II supports the dogma, Fr. Leonard Feeney, popes and saints. We could also realize that the interpretation many Catholics are using on this issue comes from the secular media, with no text to support their position from Vatican Council II or the Catechism of the Catholic Church.


In Christ


Lionel