Sunday, April 8, 2012

DID THE POPE REALLY DENY THE FAITH ON THE NEED FOR JEWS TO CONVERT ?

Yesterday on a blog I was accused of being a liar because I said Pope Benedict XVI said Jews do not have to convert in the present time. (1) The writer (Jabba Papa) quoted the relevant passage. He denied that the pope had made that statement under pressure from the Zionists.

Here is the passage in which the Holy Father dismisses the Nicene Creed, the defined dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus and Vatican Council II (Ad Gentes 7). According to the teachings of the Church any religious in this position is automatically excommunicated. Catholics have suffered persecution for not denying this very truth of our Faith. The Society of St.Pius X (SSPX) could be excommunicated this month for not affirming the same ‘heresy?’ as the pope. They have to accept the Jewish Left version of Vatican Council II and cannot say that they affirm Vatican Council II in accord with Tradition and the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.

1. JabbaPapa says:

April 7, 2012 at 16:10

Pope Benedict XVI in Light of the World-Conversations with Peter Seewald says Jews do not have to convert in the present times.

Do you think that it is an appropriate manner to celebrate the Resurrection of our Lord to post blatant lies about the Holy Father?

Here’s what the Pope wrote:

The old formulation really was offensive to Jews and failed to express positively the overall intrinsic unity between the Old and New Testament. For this reason, I believed that a modification of this passage in the old liturgy was necessary, especially, as I have already said, out of consideration for our relation with our Jewish friends. I altered the text in such a way as to express our faith that Christ is the Savior for all, that there are not two channels of salvation, so that Christ is also the redeemer of the Jews, and not just of the Gentiles.

But the new formulation also shifts the focus from a direct petition for the conversion of the Jews in a missionary sense to a plea that the Lord might bring about the hour of history when we may all be united. So the polemical arguments with which a whole series of theologians assailed me are ill-considered; they do not accurately reflect the reality of the situation.

In other words, rather than these mendacious claims that you have posted being accurate — the exact opposite is true, and in that book, Pope Benedict XVI has called for the conversion of the Jews.

You should be utterly ashamed for posting these sorts of lies on the eve of Easter.


2. Lionel Andrades says:

April 7, 2012 at 16:42


Jabba Papa:

Here’s what the Pope wrote :

The old formulation really was offensive to Jews and failed to express positively the overall intrinsic unity between the Old and New Testament.

Lionel:
It was offensive to the Chief Rabbinate of Israel in public they broke dialogue with the Vatican.

Pope Benedict XVI:
For this reason, I believed that a modification of this passage in the old liturgy was necessary, especially,

Lionel:
So because of the protests the Holy Father thought a modification of the passage was necessary.

Pope Benedict XVI:
as I have already said, out of consideration for our relation with our Jewish friends.

Lionel:
And to prevent the reported threat of violence and further protests reported in the media…

Pope Benedict XVI:
I altered the text in such a way as to express our faith that Christ is the Savior for all,

Lionel:
Here there is no problem. Christ is the Saviour of all.

Pope Benedict XVI:
that there are not two channels of salvation,

Lionel:
Here is the problem .
There is only one channel for the pope and this channel is that all who are saved are saved by Christ.Fine, except the centuries old one channel was Catholic Faith and the baptism of water for salvation.

There can be those saved in their religion and this is not an exception to the dogma which referred to the one channel of salvation. So there really is one channel and all Jews need to enter it with Catholic Faith and the baptism of water. This means the need to convert in the present time. The pope says they do not have to convert.

Conceptually, vaguely he says all those who are saved are saved by Christ.

Pope Benedict XVI:
so that Christ is also the redeemer of the Jews, and not just of the Gentiles.

Lionel: This is not an issue. This was accepted.
The question is: Christ is also the redeemer of the Jews and not just of the Gentiles and does it mean that all Jews do not have to convert in the present time?

Pope Benedict XVI:
But the new formulation also shifts the focus from a direct petition for the conversion of the Jews in a missionary sense

Lionel:
‘Shifts the focus from a direct petition for conversion’????
‘I believe in one baptism for the forgiveness of sin’-Nicene Creed. Except for the Jews in 2012. Not applicable for them?

Jabba:
to a plea that the Lord might bring about the hour of history when we may all be united. So the polemical arguments with which a whole series of theologians assailed me are ill-considered; they do not accurately reflect the reality of the situation.

In other words, rather than these mendacious claims that you have posted being accurate — the exact opposite is true, and in that book, Pope Benedict XVI has called for the conversion of the Jews.

Lionel:
‘Shifts the focus from a direct petition for conversion’????-Pope Benedict XVI
____________________________________________
'I modified it in such a way that… one did not pray directly for the conversion of the Jews…but that the Lord might hasten the historic hour in which we will all be united.'- Light of the World-Conversations with Peter Seewald (Ignatius) p.107

'one did not pray directly for the conversion of the Jews' since they do not have to convert to avoid Hell it is implied and that they will be saved in general in their religion.



On Sept 22,2009 Cardinal Angelo Bagnasco,President of the Italian Catholic Bishops Conference (CEI) before two Jewish rabbis gave into pressure by them and issued a CEI directive which said that Jews do not have to convert in the present times.The Cardinal stated that he had the support of the Vatican Secretary of State Cardinal Bertone and the Holy Father Pope Benedict XVI. There has been no contradiction from the Vatican.

Cardinal Bertone also had called the attention of the Chief Rabbinate of Israel to a front page article in the L'Osservatore Romano written by Cardinal Walter Kaspar in which he stated Jews do not have to convert in the present time.The cardinal issued the statement on Sept.22,2009 .It was reported in the daily Avvenire, on Sept.23, 2009

The front page article (April 10, 2008) in the L’Osservatore Romano was written by Cardinal Walter Kaspar.It was presented to the Chief Rabbinate of Israel by Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone, Vatican Secretary of State. It was approved by the Holy Father Pope Benedict XVI.The article said that Vatican Council II indicated that non Catholics can be saved. So Cardinal Kaspar concluded that Jews do not have to convert in the present times.

Cardinal William Levada, Prefect of the Congregation for Doctrine and Faith, Vatican never issued a clarification on Sept 22,2009 when Cardinal Angelo Bagnasco quoted Cardinal Bertone saying that the Revised Good Friday Prayer was not for the conversion of the Jews and Jews do not have to convert.

The Revised Prayer for the Conversion of the Jews was not for the conversion of present day Jews the daily newspaper of the Italian Bishops Conference Avvenire reported (' Gironata ebraico-cristiana riprende la celebrazione commune Bagnasco ai rabbinic Laras e Di Segni : diamo nuovo slancio al dialogo di Lorenzo Rosoli p. 8, Chiesa).- Lionel Andrades

1.



Friday, April 6, 2012
ANIVERSARY OF THE DENIAL OF THE FAITH BY THE MAGISTERIUM ?
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2012/04/aniversary-of-denial-of-faith-by.html

4 comments:

John Kearney said...

The trouble is that when you start blogging you can get into so many arguments tht you adop a position that you are always right and you find fault in everything. This is what is wrong with this and other articles. There is not the humility of faith here. "Let us pray for the perfidious Jews` were the words in the old liturgy. Language has changed and today to call someone perfidious is insulting. Although the approach to ecumenism in Northern Europe has been conducted in a Judas style manner by many Bishops putting people first and truth second there is a point to ecumenism which if conducted correctly could lead to unity. Do we not talk to our Protestant friends about religion or should we tell them they are heretics so `get lost`. What if a Portetant Church started praying for the Conversion of Catholics I am sure we would be offended. No less is this true of the Jews. "Why should we be sihngled out?" Ecumenism is a good idea when conducted with truth, honesty, and a desire not to insult. It is the way to u7nity. Shouting `Heretics, Heretics` achieves nothing.

Catholic Mission said...

Ecumenism is a good idea when conducted with truth, honesty, and a desire not to insult.

Charity and truth asks of us Catholics to mention when possible that all Jews, and other non Catholics are on the path to Hell unless they convert into the Catholic Church.

Catholics have been martyred for proclaiming this truth.
Jesus was killed since he spoke the truth. He spoke about the reality of the supernatural life after death i.e Heaven and Hell and the need to believe in the Jewish Messiah to be saved.

JeannieGuzman said...

I was raised a Cradle Catholic and later was told that we were Crypto Jews. I have studied Christianity and the Old Testament for years. God promised Abraham salvation for himself and his seed: This was the First Covenant, now called, "The Old Covenant!" Jesus Christ came to earth as "The WORD of God, made flesh!" What WORD of God did the world have before the New Covenant? It was "The OLD Covenant!" Jesus was "The Old Covenant" in the flesh! Jews believe in the Old Covenant! Therefore, they believe in Jesus, but do not know him under the Name of Jesus! The Jews have a closer relationship with the Old Testament than most Catholics have with the New Testament. They understand that God's Covenants and Promises are Eternal! God can not break them. They are SAVED, under God's Covenant with Abraham! And I say this as one who was raised Catholic AND raised with an understanding of the Everlasting Covenant, which God made with Abraham!

Catholic Mission said...

...What WORD of God did the world have before the New Covenant? It was "The OLD Covenant!" Jesus was "The Old Covenant" in the flesh!
Lionel:
Jesus was the fulfillment of the Old Covenant.
God also tells us in the Old Testament that covenants were made with other Jewish prophets too.So there was not only one covenant.

Jews believe in the Old Covenant!
Lionel:
They believe in the Old Covenant but without the Jewish Messiah who also made an eternal covenant with his Sacrifice. Those who believe in Him, the fulfillment of the covenant with Abraham, Moses etc and who enter the Church He founded, the new Temple with the Sacrifice of the Mass, the continuation of the one Sacrifice at Calvary, salvation is available only for them. For those who respond to Jesus’ Sacrifice in the New Covenant made with his Blood can be saved.

Therefore, they believe in Jesus, but do not know him under the Name of Jesus!
Lionel:
There are many Messianic Jews, rejected by other Jews, who believe in Jesus and know him by name, however they are not in the only Church Jesus founded. For salvation the Church is needed.

The Jews have a closer relationship with the Old Testament than most Catholics have with the New Testament. They understand that God's Covenants and Promises are Eternal! God can not break them. They are SAVED, under God's Covenant with Abraham! And I say this as one who was raised Catholic AND raised with an understanding of the Everlasting Covenant, which God made with Abraham!
Lionel:
God’s Covenants and Promises are eternal for those who accept them. It is important to respond to the truth since Hell exists. Both Jews and Catholics believe in Hell. We believe that the Catholic Church is the continuation of the Jewish religion.We have the Messiah, the Temple, the Sacrifice and the New Covenant which is the fullfillment of all the covenants of the Old Testament.