Thursday, August 2, 2012

DECREE ON ECUMENISM SUPPORTS THE DOGMA EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS

(Continued from the last post:
FR.JOE JENKINS STILL WILL NOT SAY THAT HE CANNOT SEE THE DEAD AND THERE ARE NO KNOWN EXCEPTIONS TO EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS

FATHER JOE:
This does not mean that non-Catholics are necessarily damned. Rather, what it means is that no matter what a person might have been, if he should find himself in heaven, he is now most certainly a member of the Catholic Church in glory and included among the communion of the saints.

Lionel:
They are not damned. If they convert they can go to Heaven. If they do not they are on the way to Hell.

FATHER JOE:
He also bad mouths a retired priest from Sydney, Fr. John George. I read that he had some past problems in his Archdiocese, but I really know next to nothing about him. It looks like the pertinent areas on his message board have been deleted.

Lionel:
Fr.John George is a fine priest and I like him. We have been corresponding for quite some time on his board. He has his style of defending the Catholic Church and is generally orthodox in his view. I do not know of any problems he may have had in his Archdiocese and I have not mentioned  any.


However just like  Fr.Jenkins he will not accept that we do not know the dead, we cannot see them personally on earth, face to face. There are no dead- alive. He does not want to accept the literal interpretation of the dogma even though he is conservative on other issues.

FATHER JOE:
Unable to deal with coherent arguments, Lionel Andrades attacks the person. It is a whacky crusade.

Lionel:
I am careful to restrict my self to doctrine and theology.

FATHER JOE:
He says that documents which obviously say one thing are saying something else. Indeed, he would make the Decree on Ecumenism at Vatican II teach they very opposite from what it actually teaches. Such reflects a silliness that may cross over into a blind fanaticism or a simple sickness of mind. I am not sure which, maybe both? He says that I will not acknowledge the “theological implications” of our not being able to see the blessed of heaven or I suppose, conversely, the damned of hell.

Lionel:
You are unable to admit that you cannot see your dead relatives or parishioners.

FATHER JOE:
However, the deposit of faith is based not upon what we can see but what is passed down to us and taught by the Magisterium.


Lionel:
True and the texts of magisterial documents do not say that we can see the dead who are exceptions to AG 7 and the dogma outside the church no salvation.

FATHER JOE:
That is the whole business about believing, we live by faith, not by sight.

Lionel:
I know I cannot see my deceased relatives. They are not in sight.

FATHER JOE:
The Decree on Ecumenism at Vatican II states:
[3] Even in the beginnings of this one and only Church of God there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly condemned. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions made their appearance and quite large communities came to be separated from full communion with the Catholic Church-for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame. THE CHILDREN WHO ARE BORN INTO THESE COMMUNITIES AND WHO GROW UP BELIEVING IN CHRIST CANNOT BE ACCUSED OF THE SIN INVOLVED IN THE SEPARATION, AND THE CATHOLIC CHURCH EMBRACES UPON THEM AS BROTHERS, with respect and affection. FOR MEN WHO BELIEVE IN CHRIST AND HAVE BEEN TRULY BAPTIZED ARE IN COMMUNION WITH THE CATHOLIC CHURCH EVEN THOUGH THIS COMMUNION IS IMPERFECT.

Lionel:
Yes they can be saved . We accept this in principle, in faith.


The text above does not claim that these cases are explicitly known to us. Neither does the text state that these cases are exceptions to the dogma.


One has to make these false assumptions.The Vatican Council II text does not say it.

FATHER JOE:
The differences that exist in varying degrees between them and the Catholic Church-whether in doctrine and sometimes in discipline, or concerning the structure of the Church-do indeed create many obstacles, sometimes serious ones, to full ecclesiastical communion. The ecumenical movement is striving to overcome these obstacles. BUT EVEN IN SPITE OF THEM IT REMAINS TRUE THAT ALL WHO HAVE BEEN JUSTIFIED BY FAITH IN BAPTISM ARE MEMBERS OF CHRIST’S BODY, AND HAVE A RIGHT TO BE CALLED CHRISTIAN, AND SO ARE CORRECTLY ACCEPTED AS BROTHERS BY THE CHILDREN OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.

Lionel:
Yes they are accepted as brothers who are justified by faith, Catholic Faith. (even the Jehovah Witnesses have faith in Jesus).They who have converted are members of Christ's Body and they can be saved.

Note again this passage does not state that these persons are known to us or that they are exceptions to the dogma.

Ad Gentes 7 says all need faith for salvation. This means Catholic faith.

FATHER JOE:
Moreover, some and even very many of the significant elements and endowments which together go to build up and give life to the Church itself, can exist outside the visible boundaries of the Catholic Church: the written word of God; THE LIFE OF GRACE’ FAITH, HOPE AND CHARITY, WITH THE OTHER INTERIOR GIFTS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, and visible elements too. All of these, which come from Christ and lead back to Christ, belong by right to the one Church of Christ.

Lionel:
True. Still there is no conflice with the dogma or AG 7.

FATHER JOE:
The brethren divided from us also use many liturgical actions of the Christian religion. These most certainly can TRULY ENGENDER A LIFE OF GRACE in ways that vary according to the condition of each Church or Community. These liturgical actions must be regarded as capable of giving access to the community of salvation.

Lionel:
True they would lead these Christians to the community of salvation which is the Catholic Church. (See also Notifiocation on Fr.Jacques Dupuis S.J by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith 2001).


FATHER JOE:
IT FOLLOWS THAT THE SEPARATED CHURCHES AND COMMUNITIES AS SUCH, though we believe them to be deficient in some respects, HAVE BEEN BY NO MEANS DEPRIVED OF SIGNIFICANCE AND IMPORTANCE IN THE MYSTERY OF SALVATION. FOR THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST HAS NOT REFRAINED FROM USING THEM AS MEANS OF SALVATION which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Church.

Lionel.
A Protestant can be saved in his community as a possibility known only to God. The ordinary means of salvation is the Catholic Church. It is Catholic Faith which includes the baptism of water. Protestants have the baptism of water but not Catholic faith.


No contradiction to the dogma or AG 7.The passage above is not saying that Christian communities are the ordinary means of salvation.

FATHER JOE:
Nevertheless, our separated brethren, whether considered as individuals or as Communities and Churches, are not blessed with that unity which Jesus Christ wished to bestow on all those who through Him were born again into one body, and with Him quickened to newness of life-that unity which the Holy Scriptures and the ancient Tradition of the Church proclaim. For it is only through Christ’s Catholic Church, which is “the all-embracing means of salvation,” that they can benefit fully from the means of salvation.

Lionel:
For it is only through Christ’s Catholic Church, which is “the all-embracing means of salvation,” that they can benefit fully from the means of salvation.


This is the message of the dogma and AG 7.

FATHER JOE:
We believe that Our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, in order to establish the one Body of Christ on earth to which all should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the people of God. This people of God, though still in its members liable to sin, is ever growing in Christ during its pilgrimage on earth, and is guided by God’s gentle wisdom, according to His hidden designs, until it shall happily arrive at the fullness of eternal glory in the heavenly Jerusalem.

Lionel:
We believe that Our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, in order to establish the one Body of Christ on earth to which all should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the people of God.

FATHER JOE:
Notice that the Council fathers spoke about our separated brethren as growing in grace. Actual grace is not possible unless one has first acquired sanctifying grace. The fact that they do not know that the Catholic Church is the true Church is not held against them. Turning to the subject of non-Christians, one finds a respectful assessment from the Church in the Vatican II document, Nostra Aetate. I shudder to think what Lionel Andrades would try to do with this, given his Feeneyite affiliation.

Lionel:
Nostra Aetate mentions those who are good and holy in other religions but does say that their religion is a means of salvation or that it is the ordinary means of salvation. If it did it would contradict AG 7, Vatican Council II. So Nostra Aetate does not contradict the dogma.

FATHER JOE:
Lionel Andrades curses the whole world and writes that “all non-Catholics are oriented to Hell and there are no known exceptions.”

Lionel:
No curses for anyone. Man was born good in the Garden of Eden. It is due to Adam's Fall that we suffer. We carry Original Sin which needs to be wiped out with the baptism of water.

FATHER JOE
But this is hardly the position of Vatican II and the living Church; quite the contrary, we emphasize the hope of salvation. While I give direct quotes from his remarks, Lionel Andrades misrepresents me, just as he does Church teachings and documents.

Lionel:
The Decree on Ecumenism mentions the need for Christians communities to come to the true Chruch according to the quotes above.


Then we still have Ad Gentes 7 before us.

FATHER JOE:
He writes that I wrongly give room to ignorance. However, such is only an ingredient in possible salvation and not the most essential. He attributes an expression to me that I find rather foreign and unfamiliar: “Those who do not know about Jesus and the Church are oriented to Heaven.” I never said or wrote that such people are necessarily “oriented” toward heaven.

Lionel:
Lumen Gentium 14 mentions it.


-Lionel Andrades

10 comments:

Anonymous said...

Jehovah Witnesses are not recognized by the Catholic Church as Christians. You are wrong. They do not believe that Jesus is God.

Anonymous said...

Pope Pius IX states: “We know and you know that those who are invincibly ignorant of our most holy Religion, and who, carefully observing the Natural Law and its precepts, placed by God into the hearts of all men, and being disposed to obey God, lead an honest and upright life, can, with the help of Divine Light and Grace, merit eternal life; for God, Who has perfect knowledge, examines and judges the minds, the souls, the thoughts and the deeds of all men, and He does not permit, in His sovereign Goodness and Mercy, any men not culpable of willful sin to be punished with eternal torment.” (QUANTO CONFICIAMUR MOERORE)

Catechism of the Council of Trent (McHugh-Callan edition): “Should any unforeseen accident make it impossible for adults to be washed in the salutary waters, their intention and determination to receive Baptism and their repentance for past sins, will avail them to grace and righteousness” (page 179).

Anonymous said...

The new universal catechism would go further today in talking about baptism by desire and the plight of those not formally incorporated into the Catholic Church. The catechism states that “every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and His Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with His understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity” [CCC 1260]. Citing Lumen Gentium 16, the catechism also teaches that “Those who die for the faith, those who are catechumens, and all those who, without knowing of the Church but acting under the inspiration of grace, seek God sincerely and strive to fulfill his will, can be saved even if they have not been baptized” [CCC 1281]. Note that it says “can be” and not “will be” saved. Salvation is entirely God’s gratuity to us. He saves whoever he wills to save. The saving faith of baptized Catholics can be forfeited by mortal sin. The teaching from the catechism which informs the rest on this question is CCC 1257: “The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation. He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them. Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament. The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are ‘reborn of water and the Spirit.’ God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.”

Anonymous said...

My sentiments on this question would be the same generally as Pope Pius XII in his encyclical MYSTICI CORPORIS #103: “As you know, Venerable Brethren, from the very beginning of Our Pontificate, We have committed to the protection and guidance of heaven those who do not belong to the visible Body of the Catholic Church, solemnly declaring that after the example of the Good Shepherd We desire nothing more ardently than that they may have life and have it more abundantly. Imploring the prayers of the whole Church We wish to repeat this solemn declaration in this Encyclical Letter in which We have proclaimed the praises of the ‘great and glorious Body of Christ’ and from a heart overflowing with love We ask each and every one of them to correspond to the interior movements of grace, and to seek to withdraw from that state in which they cannot be sure of their salvation. For even though by an unconscious desire and longing they have a certain relationship with the Mystical Body of the Redeemer, they still remain deprived of those many heavenly gifts and helps which can only be enjoyed in the Catholic Church. Therefore may they enter into Catholic unity and, joined with Us in the one, organic Body of Jesus Christ, may they together with us run on to the one Head in the Society of glorious love. Persevering in prayer to the Spirit of love and truth, We wait for them with open and outstretched arms to come not to a stranger’s house, but to their own, their Father’s home.”

Look at the universal catechism again for further explication (CCC 846-848, 851). What does the Church understand by the teaching that “Outside the Church there is no Salvation”? “Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body: ‘Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it’ (Second Vatican Council, Lumen Gentium, 14). This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and His Church: ‘Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience — those too may achieve eternal salvation’ (Second Vatican Council, Lumen Gentium, 16). ‘Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him (Hebrews 11:6), the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men” (Second Vatican Council, Ad Gentes, 1).

Catholic Mission said...

Father Joe,
With reference to Mystici Corporis.
The pope does not state that those who do not belong to the visible Body of the Catholic Church are not known to us on earth and that we can see them face to face.
Neither does he state that they are excplicit exceptions to the dogma.

Catholic Mission said...

Fr.Joe,
With reference to CCC 846.
It states 'all salvation comes from Christ the head through the Church which is his Body'.
It does not state that we know these cases on earth, that they are visible or that we can identify them.
Neither does it state that these cases are exceptions to the centuries old interpretation of the dogma.

Catholic Mission said...

Father Joe:
With reference to CCC 1260.
In faith we accept the possibility of someone being saved who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ.

CCC 1260 does not claim that we know these cases on earth. Neither does it claim that these dead and saved cases are exceptions to the dogma or AG 7.

Similarly it does not state that we know those who have been saved without the Sacraments (1257).Vatican Council II and the Catechism does not make the claim that we can see the dead and they are explicit exceptions to the doggma and AG 7.

Catholic Mission said...

QUANTO CONFICIAMUR MOERORE

Yes it is referring to those who can be saved in principle in invincible ignorance. It i not referring to these cases being known explicitly, in reality.
They can only be accepted in principle since they are explicit only for God.

Catholic Mission said...

Jehovah Witnesses

My point was that they believe in Jesus. Here in Rome they distribute on the streets photos of Jesus.Some of them have expressed their faith in Jesus.
However they do not believe in the Trinity and they say Jesus and St.Michael the Archangel are one.

So just faith in Jesus is not enough. This is a Protestant view.
For salvation faith in Jesus is needed and also belief in the teachings of the Catholic Church. The Church too is necessary for salvation.

George Brenner said...

" Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it’ (Second Vatican Council, Lumen Gentium, 14). This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and His Church: ‘Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience — those too may achieve eternal salvation’ (Second Vatican Council, Lumen Gentium, 16). ‘Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him (Hebrews 11:6), the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men” (Second Vatican Council, Ad Gentes, 1). "

Yes indeed but there was a time when, ' knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it' meant that those that were in the clergy and laypeople alike hopefully out of love and charity and not arrogance would teach to ALL that they would come into contact with both Catholics and non Catholics that The Catholic Church is the ONE TRUE CHURCH outside which there is no Salvation. We were not ashamed nor did we hide or minimize the truths as some secret that we would keep to ourselves. In the the spirit of conciliar and ecumenical love we kept the truth to ourselves rather than preach and teach the truth and thus the Crisis of Faith and loss of vocations, fallen away Catholics, sins of the flesh and loss of practicing Catholics. This is how a elderly patient in the hospital can tell me that since Vatican II, we do not need to worry about Purgatory any longer. That is why there has been so many hollow sermons. Lets not offend anyone and just worry about collection of money and not Souls.

And of course, ' This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and His Church: ‘Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience — those too may achieve eternal salvation ’ But if we were teaching the Catholic faith as we should, how will God judge those who " do not know through their own fault that the Catholic Church is the one true Church" yet they were given this information and truth out of love but do NOT accept it as factual. What is their eternal fate? We do not know the answer to that. But what we do know is that we have for the greatest part failed to teach the faith in great majority of all situations to those who do not know for decades and those clergy at all levels are accountable before God. The light was red so if you run it because you did not know you had to stop, someone including a policeman with a ticket will tell you at red lights you must stop. Teach the Faith and all that we know that they may know it also. Enough of the decades of false charity.