Wednesday, August 1, 2012


Here is the text of Ad Gentes 7,Vatican Council II and the defined dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.

Therefore, all must be converted to Him, made known by the Church's preaching, and all must be incorporated into Him by baptism and into the Church which is His body. For Christ Himself "by stressing in express language the necessity of faith and baptism (cf. Mark 16:16; John 3:5), at the same time confirmed the necessity of the Church, into which men enter by baptism, as by a door.-Ad Gentes 7,Vatican Council II.

• There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved.” (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215.)

• “We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” (Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.)

• “The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.) -

No magisterial text claims there are known exceptions or that there are exceptions to the dogma or AG 7.

When magisterial texts refer to in principle (implicit) exceptions to the dogma one has to assume that they are defacto (explicit, known) exceptions to the dogma. The text does not say it. This is the error of Fr.Joe Jenkins.

They have to be only in principle (dejure, implicit) exceptions since we cannot know any de facto (explicit) case on earth.

Since those who are saved in invincible ignorance etc are known only to God we do not know if there is any such case in 2012 or ever. We cannot know if these ‘exceptions’ are saved with the baptism of water or without the Sacraments. However this does not contradict the dogma, either way.

The Letter of the Holy Office 1949 affirms the dogma and the literal interpretation of Fr. Leonard Feeney in the earlier paragraphs. If in the latter paragraphs it assumes implicit desire is an explicit exception to the dogma then it made an objective mistake.

Implicit desire is irrelevant to the dogma. We do not know any particular case.

If Lumen Gentium 14 assumes that we know those saved in invincible ignorance and so only those who ‘know’ about Jesus and the Church and who do not convert are oriented to Hell, then this would be an objective mistake. However I interpret it as only God can decide who is in invincible ignorance and who ‘knows’ so there is no controversy here.-Lionel


Dim Prospects for the Society of St. Pius X from the blog BLOGGER PRIEST (1)

Fr. Joe Jenkins cannot still say that the dead are not visible to us (he cannot see his deceased relatives in real life) and so there are no exceptions to the literal interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. Nor are there any exceptions to Ad Gentes 7 which says all need’ ‘faith and baptism’ for salvation.

Here are my brief replies to his latest  response.

You are one sick dude. You next criticize me for editing your proof-text version of Ad Gentes 7 (deleted here) while such had already been posted to the comments with the clarifications still in place in reference to the whole document. Now that you are deriding me on your blog and stealing from my site, I am hereby banning you.

Many of my comments were not posted so the ban was already there.

I can no longer be party to parading your ignorance for all to see. It bothers me in conscience. I will let this and the earlier remarks suffice as a rebuttal.

I noticed that while I posted your comments up to this point, you have not permitted my short one at yours. You do not believe in playing fair, so there you have it.

Your comment was immediately posted.
Here is a copy:

Father Joe
I did not give permission to post my photo. You also did not correctly report about what we discussed. I quoted the Popes and the Council. You repeated slogans. You initiated this discussion at my blogs. I really have no desire to be associated with you or your site. I would ask you to remove the photo. Thank You.
July 29, 2012 12:43 AM

Catholic Mission said...
The photo is from the public domain.When people do not want their photos copied there is a system for blocking it from being copied.
I can also quote the popes and the Council and you will not post it in the discussion.
I initiated it and you ended it. There was no discussion.
You still have not denied that we cannot see non Catholics dead and who are saved.
You can see the dead saved who are execptions to the dogma and to Ad Gentes 7 ?
July 29, 2012 3:14 PM

The photo was immediately removed after I posted the comment.
If I travel to Lazio or Rome it is safe to say that I will not be paying you a visit.

Mr. Lionel Andrades, neither you nor the SSPX can dictate to the Magisterium and the Vatican. You do not understand the documents you cite. Failing to appreciate this, you repeat your dissent again and again in the hope that this mantra of slogans will convince someone. You are arguing that we do not know the dead and saved in heaven; and yet, while we have no absolute certitude for most souls, there are canonized saints raised up by the Church as exemplars and intercessors for God’s pilgrim people on earth.

May be you still have misunderstood me. None of your deceased relatives or parishioners are visible to you.We cannot see the deceased.
Those whom the Church declares as saint we know that they are in Heaven. We accept this in faith. In general people cannot see them. Neither can you ?

 You use a false reasoning or argument that if we do not know by name any souls who have escaped damnation because of invincible ignorance then by necessity there cannot be any.

I am just saying that in principle we can believe that there are people who can be in Heaven saved in invincible ignorance etc. Practically we do not know these cases. So invincible ignorance is not an exception to the dogma or AG 7 mentioned above.

While the situation with Judas is dire, we have no absolute certainty of the names of any of the damned; however, this does not mean that there are no souls suffering perdition. My views are entirely in sync with the Church and Pope Benedict XVI. You have no authority to interpret (or should I say misinterpret) ecclesial documents in a way inconsistent with the living Church and Magisterium. You are the one skirting heresy but are too insignificant to register on the Church’s radar. If you were a priest, however, you would be censured and removed from ministry.

I noticed that you published a photo of me that is personal property on your site without permission. I would ask you to remove it. I do not want to be associated with you.

You cannot unjustly put words into the mouths of others or make straw man arguments with Archbishop Muller, Archbishop Di Noia or anyone else representative of the Holy See (alias Lionel the Confused Bishop).

I have mentioned in that blog post that if one would meet the Vatican Curia cardinals and bishops the conversation would go like this... I did not say I actually met them.

 The Vatican II documents must be understood within the context of Catholic faith and tradition, not as a break with the essentials. But the error of Fr. Feeney’s friends is not representative of genuine tradition.

You create a false dichotomy between the dogma of no salvation outside the Church and the teachings about baptism by desire and the role of invincible ignorance. There are various conditions, like a life of charity and at least a natural discipleship. Further, these teachings are understood within the dogma about the necessity of the Church, not outside of it as an exception. The issue of the Feeney crisis is peripheral to the SSPX debate since they officially do not subscribe to any such exaggeration or heresy. The recent statement by the SSPX is inexact but is probably a shot against the sin of religious indifferentism.

The SSPX communique affirms the literal interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus, just like Fr.Leonard Feeney.

I have already cited many documents to which you turn a blind eye or rationalize away. I am way past thinking that you are a an obsessed fanatic. When I do a Google search, your ramblings are like spam throughout the blogosphere.

Because of disagreements to his comments, Lionel Andrades has started a campaign to drag through the mud my name and that of a priest in Australia. He thinks that citing Vatican II and the Magisterium against the SSPX and the Feeneyites will somehow get me in trouble with our bishops and the Church.

You will not get into trouble with your bishops since they too assume that we can see the dead.

I doubt the man is a theologian of any sort because he twists Church teaching and uses slogans to debate, neglecting or feigning straight facts and logical reasoning. He writes, “Priests in Washington and Sydney refuse to say that the dead saved in heaven are not visible to us.” Of course, nothing of the kind was said, only that such reasoning could not be used against the teachings about baptism by desire and the notion of invincible ignorance.

Your still not willing to say that we do not know any explicit exceptions to the dogma or AG 7 quoted above.

Calling orthodox teaching “theological novelty,” he says that I am “resisting the Catholic Church going back to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.” Of course, such is not the case. However he interprets the dogma that there is no salvation outside the Church to mean that all Protestants, all Jews, all Moslems, all Hindus, all Buddhists and all non-believers are necessarily damned to the fires of hell, without exception.

The text quoted above says that they are all oriented to Hell unless they convert into the Catholic Church with Catholic Faith and the baptism of water.

 I would counter that we are not presumptuous of our own salvation and we do not claim any veto authority over divine mercy.

True we personally would not know, however the Church through the de fide teachings quoted above tell us that they are oriented to Hell.

Lionel Andrades does not care what the Holy Office, Vatican II or the popes taught. If we cannot see the blessed in heaven or the damned in hell then he insists that we cannot claim that any are saved because of invincible ignorance and/or baptism by desire.

We do not know any case on earth saved in invincible ignorance etc and neither can you name any.
Regarding the blessed in Heaven we accept that they are in Heaven in faith, because the Church says so.

 I wonder if he thinks hell might be empty since we cannot “see” any human beings there either.

The dogma indicates millions of non Catholics are oriented to Hell with fire.

 He never responds to the fact that the Church canonizes certain saints as in heaven. He wants to make sure that the three-fourths of the world that is not Catholic will go to hell. Who knows how many of the billion Catholics will make it, given the tragedy of mortal sin. Lionel Andrades makes himself into his own infallible teaching authority over and against the Magisterium and faithful priests.

The magisterium quoted above indicates millions are oriented to Hell. This is not just my view.

The Catholic teaching is clear. Christ is the way and the truth and the life. None are saved apart from Christ (the head) or the Church (his mystical body).

True and this does not contradict the dogma and AG 7. Every one needs to enter the Church for salvation.

 The teaching about a matter like baptism by desire and the issue of invincible ignorance works within this dogmatic equation. The Church intercedes and prays for the world. The Church embraces, even if there is a lack of juridical affiliation, all those who have been legitimately baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. There is only one covenant, not two. Jesus is the fulfillment of God’s covenant, first established through the Jewish people and later in a full realization with Christ’s saving sacrifice on the Cross.

True and this does not contradict the text quoted above.

 We do not say that all non-Catholics are saved any more than we way that all Catholics are saved.


However, everything necessary for salvation subsists in the Catholic Church.

True and this does not contradict the dogmatic teaching above that everyone on earth needs to enter the Church for salvation.

 If anyone should be saved and find himself in heaven, it is because of Christ’s power and his atonement. He is the bridge between earth and heaven. There is no secret tunnel or other passage across the ravine caused by sin.

 Our understanding of a just God is that he would not condemn people for what they fail to know in good faith. However, whatever truths and elements of real faith they possess will always be orientated toward incorporation in the Catholic Church. There is gravity toward a real and lasting union, not only in the Catholic Church but also in the kingdom of God. This kingdom is breaking into the world through the Church. Everyone in heaven is Catholic.

Everyone in heaven is Catholic! Amen.

(to be continued)


MONDAY, JULY 30, 2012

JULY 28, 2012

1 comment:

George Brenner said...

We cannot and should never deny the possibilities of Salvation as judged by God,those who are worthy to enter Heaven through Invincible Ignorance, Baptism of Desire or Baptism of Blood that are unknown to us on earth. In fact I would go so far as to say that we can pray and hope that many DO gain Salvation in this manner. Yet we must realize that their fate is at the mercy of God, since their Salvation does NOT fall under the teaching mandate to teach the Catholic Faith as instructed by Jesus to the Apostles and their succesors. It can only be foolish pride and lack of Charity to deny or question these possibilities as they have existed before our all knowing and merciful God. But leave those mercies as possibilities known only to God completely up to God! It is extremely dangerous and erroneous to teach that there are many channels to Salvation as if it was a pick and choose Faith we hold.

The tragedy of the last half century in our Crisis of the Faith has been due to the watering down of the Dogma of Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus. The failure to teach this correctly as understood by the Church for centuries has been reduced to a meaningless formula , save a few strong voices. The lack of proper catechesis is only now being understood and admitted by many who should have and could have acted to teach the Catholic Faith with clarity and reverence and thus do the will of God. This has been a blatant and severe wound to the Church for many decades. In watering down our Faith, many through false charity and appeasement have given the impression and green light that we have entered into some kind of smorgasboard Salvation which must break the heart of our Savour, Jesus Christ. The faith must be taught correctly, while leaving the mercies to God. Teach "No Salvation Outside the Catholic Church" properly and the crisis will end. Luke warm and spineless Catechesis of appeasement has cost the Church dearly.
The reason we have had this Crisis is is due to this very issue multiplied significantly by sins of the flesh. Wake up ...... Enough!