DECREE ON ECUMENISM SUPPORTS THE DOGMA EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS
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FATHER JOE:
All I wrote is that God saves whoever he pleases and that we cannot damn others.
Lionel:
We do not claim that anyone is damned who is still on earth.
FATHER JOE:
Lionel Andrades desperately wants to damn people. I suspect when he faces the particular judgment he will try to tell the Lord his business if non-Catholics should “sneak” into heaven. Of course, there is no absolute guarantee that he is going to paradise, either. Saying one sees (while really blind) and condemning others was a sin that earned the rebuke of Christ toward the scribes and Pharisees.
Lionel:
The Bible tells us that there are some sins which can prevent a person from seeing the Kingdom of God, fornication etc. It is not a condemnation of fornicators it is a warning in charity.
Similarly the Church teaches through the dogma and Vatican Council II (AG 7) that non Catholics need to convert for salvation.
FATHER JOE:
His rebellion in the Church may illicit a similar response. Dismissing the real Vatican II and the post-conciliar popes, the universal catechism, Pope Pius XII, and Pope Pius IX, Lionel Andrades pontificates: “The de fide teaching is that all are oriented to Hell with Original Sin and mortal sins and with no access to the Sacraments. They need to enter the Church to benefit from Jesus’ sacrifice for them.” Such is his narrow interpretation of Dominus Iesus written by Cardinal Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict XVI.
Lionel:
This is the teaching in Dominus Iesus 20 and AG 7, Vatican Council II. This is the magisterium of the Church. This has been the teaching in the Catholic Church for centuries.
Father Joe:
The document cites Vatican II and states, “In considering the values which these religions witness to and offer humanity, with an open and positive approach, the Second Vatican Council’s Declaration on the relation of the Church to non-Christian religions states: ‘THE CATHOLIC CHURCH REJECTS NOTHING OF WHAT IS TRUE AND HOLY IN THESE RELIGIONS. She has a high regard for the manner of life and conduct, the precepts and teachings, which, although differing in many ways from her own teaching, nonetheless often reflect a ray of that truth which enlightens all men.’ Continuing in this line of thought, the Church’s proclamation of Jesus Christ, ‘the way, the truth, and the life’ (Jn 14:6), today also makes use of the practice of inter-religious dialogue. Such dialogue certainly does not replace, but rather accompanies the missio ad gentes, directed toward that ‘mystery of unity,’ from which ‘it follows that all men and women who are saved share, though differently, in the same mystery of salvation in Jesus Christ through his Spirit.’ Inter-religious dialogue, which is part of the Church’s evangelizing mission, requires an attitude of understanding and a relationship of mutual knowledge and reciprocal enrichment, in obedience to the truth and with respect for freedom” [2]. Note that there are elements of truth and holiness.
Lionel:
Nostra Aetate does not contradict Ad Gentes 7
LUMEN GENTIUM 14 DOES NOT CONTRADICT ITSELF
FATHER JOE:
If what Lionel Andrades said were true, there could be no holiness outside the confines of Catholicism. Later we read: “Certainly, it must be recognized that there are some elements in these texts which may be de facto instruments by which COUNTLESS PEOPLE THROUGHOUT THE CENTURIES HAVE BEEN AND STILL ARE ABLE TODAY TO NOURISH AND MAINTAIN THEIR LIFE-RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD. Thus, as noted above, the Second Vatican Council, in considering the customs, precepts, and teachings of the other religions, teaches that ‘although differing in many ways from her own teaching, these nevertheless often reflect a ray of that truth which enlightens all men’” .
In these quotations from Nostra Aetate no where is it said that those who are good and holy and saved are known to us or that they are exceptions to the dogma. We accept the possibility in faith but in reality there are no known possibilities.There are no known possibilities of these cases being visible to us.
FATHER JOE:
If what Lionel Andrades said were true, non-Catholic or non-Christian elements could not preserve a “life-relationship” with God. He continues: “Nevertheless, God, who desires to call all peoples to himself in Christ and to communicate to them the fullness of his revelation and love, ‘DOES NOT FAIL TO MAKE HIMSELF PRESENT IN MANY WAYS, not only to individuals, BUT ALSO TO ENTIRE PEOPLES through their spiritual riches, OF WHICH THEIR RELIGIONS ARE THE MAIN AND ESSENTIAL EXPRESSION even when they contain ‘gaps, insufficiencies and errors.’ Therefore, the SACRED BOOKS OF OTHER RELIGIONS, which in actual fact direct and nourish the existence of their followers, RECEIVE FROM THE MYSTERY OF CHRIST THE ELEMENTS OF GOODNESS AND GRACE WHICH THEY CONTAIN” [8].
I am surprised that Lionel Andrades cites Dominus Iesus, given that it ultimately repudiates his entire position. I suspect the reason is that he reads snippets and not entire documents. It is true, as I have always believed and taught that Jesus is the one Mediator and bridge between heaven and earth.
Lionel:
True Jesus is the one mediator and bridge is a Catholic belief which is not in opposition to the dogmatic teaching on extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
FATHER JOE:
None are saved apart from Christ and his body, the Church. But the document goes on to say the following:
Furthermore, THE SALVIFIC ACTION OF JESUS CHRIST, with and through his Spirit, EXTENDS BEYOND THE VISIBLE BOUNDARIES OF THE CHURCH TO ALL HUMANITY. Speaking of the paschal mystery, in which Christ even now associates the believer to himself in a living manner in the Spirit and gives him the hope of resurrection, the Council states: “ALL THIS HOLDS TRUE NOT ONLY FOR CHRISTIANS BUT ALSO FOR ALL MEN OF GOOD WILL IN WHOSE HEARTS GRACE IS ACTIVE INVISIBLY. For since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partners, in a way known to God, in the paschal mystery.” [12]
Lionel:
I agree Christ died for all, salvation is available for all, it is universal and Dominus 20 also says that all men to receive this salvation need to respond. They respond by entering the Church. So the Church is necessary for salvation.
FATHER JOE:
The single and universal economy of salvation in Christ is affirmed; but, not the proposition that non-Catholics are damned.
Lionel:
Yes the single and universal economy of salvation in Christ (Dominus Iesus n.4) is affirmed and it does not contradict Dominus Iesus 20 and the dogma on the necessity of the Church for salvation.
FATHER JOE:
Lionel Andrades seems either unwilling or too thick to accept this teaching. If I could I would spare him from further embarassing himself. At least the SSPX (on their issues) are honest enough to say they disagree with the Vatican.
Lionel:
They would disagree with the visible dead theories attached to Vatican Council II.
FATHER JOE:
As for the Feeneyites, of which he is a member, they are opposed by both the pre- and post-conciliar Church.
Lionel:
The Church has granted them canonical status in the USA.Fr.Leonard Feeney held the official teaching of the magisterium and is in accord with Vatican Council II and the SSPX communique (July 19, 2012). He was not asked by the Church to recant.
FATHER JOE .
Lionel Andrades is a man of many contradictions, especially as he misrepresents me, others and the Church. While insisting that all non-Catholics are oriented (destined) for hell, he writes later that while “there may not be a single case in 2012 of saved in invincible ignorance; we accept in principle that it is possible, known to God, that there could be people saved in invincible ignorance.” He admits the possibility for something that he said previously was a closed door.
Lionel:
Possibilities do not contradict actual cases.It does not contradict the Principle of Non Contradiction. Dejure a person can be saved in invincible ignorance. Defacto we do not know any such case.
FATHER JOE:
Maybe he just wants to be contrary for the sake of contrariness? He next says that this does not violate the principle of non-contradiction; however, when you say that something is NO might actually be YES, this is hard to stomach. Despite his false caricature of me, I merely insisted that one could not use the argument of not knowing who was saved to disqualify the notions of invincible ignorance and baptism by desire.
Lionel:
The issue is not ‘not knowing who was saved’ but are those who are saved visible to us on earth ?
FATHER JOE:
Except for the canonized saints, we can only hope for salvation in regard to ourselves and others.
Lionel:
Can we see the canonised saints on earth ? Are they visible to us ?
FATHER JOE:
Lionel Andrades seemed to close the door to such hope, at least for the majority of people on the planet. The Church is not arguing for the salvation of individually known cases but rather in principle. Even canonized saints must be verified by an investigation and miracles. We were arguing the principle all along and yet now Lionel Andrades seems less sure of himself. Maybe he is hedging to protect himself from expulsion from the Church? I would contend that the principle is not in question while I still think he would judge it dubious or unlikely. How many times did he insist that there could be no exceptions? Now he is admitting the possibility of exceptions. Arguing with this man makes the head hurt.
Lionel:
There are no known exceptions, we cannot see any one dead who is now saved. So if we cannot see the dead it cannot be said that there are explicit exceptions to the dogma or AG 7.
FATHER JOE:
Lionel Andrades writes that I claim “to know who is saved” and that these cases are “visible” to me.
Lionel:
I repeat that Fr.Joe will not say that the dead are not visible to him. In other words Fr. Joe Jenkins will not say that he cannot see the dead –saved.So can he really see the dead saved in invincible ignorance etc ?
FATHER JOE:
Well, all I can say is that Mister Andrades is telling a lie of the worse sort. Indeed, his misrepresentation of me is probably the matter of serious sin. I would urge him to make a retraction, assent to the Pope, and go to confession for absolution. I do not like making such a public judgment, but his misrepresentation devalues my character and my fidelity to Mother Church. If and when he recants, I will remove these remarks from my blog.
He next writes that “Fr. Jenkins says that the Holy Office in 1949 condemned Fr. Leonard Feeney for rejecting the baptism of desire.” I actually did not write this sentence, I simply allowed the statement to speak for itself. Fr. Feeney was excommunicated in 1953 for “persistent disobedience to legitimate Church authority.” He supported colleagues in their denial of baptism by desire and baptism by blood.
Lionel:
He supported colleagues in their denial of baptism by desire and blood being exceptions to the dogma.
So we come back to the original question Fr. Joe Jenkins: Can you see anyone on earth saved with the baptism of desire or blood ? Fr. Feeney could not.Since we cannot see the dead on earth we know that the baptism of desire etc are irrelevant to the literal interpretation of the dogma.
FATHER JOE:
Lionel Andrades wants Pope Benedict XVI to parrot his own deficient argument that since we do not have a name of a person saved through “implicit desire” it does not exist and is an error. The Pope will never do this because the Pope will not teach heresy.
Lionel:
Since we do not have the name of a person saved with implicit desire we cannot assume that there are cases in 2012 or suggest that we know these cases on earth and so they are exceptions to the dogma.
FATHER JOE:
But I guess that makes Lionel Andrades a heretic, if one can figure out from his jumbled mind, what actually he is trying to say. I would urge readers to pray for the poor fanatic. Hopefully, he will not find himself outside or opposed to the Church that is necessary for salvation
Lionel:
I have quoted the dogma and AG 7 which I affirm. To suppose that the defined dogma has defacto, known exceptions would be heresy.
-Lionel Andrades
FR.JOE JENKINS STILL WILL NOT SAY THAT HE CANNOT SEE THE DEAD AND THERE ARE NO KNOWN EXCEPTIONS TO EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2012/08/frjoe-jenkins-still-will-not-say-that.html#links )
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