Paul at www.baptismofdesire.com has a message.
Paul:
Pope Pius XII approved the global publication of the letter of the Holy Office in 1952 and allowed it to circulate around the world for the rest of his pontificate until 1958.
Lionel:
Any one who infers that the dead-saved who are now in Heaven are visible to us on earth and this visibility is common to all of us is irrational.When you consider the baptism of desire an exception to all needing to defacto enter the Church with the baptism of water, you are implying that these 'deceased' are exceptions.
You are saying that there is no implicit for us baptism of desire but one which is explicitly visible in the flesh.This is your reasoning even though no magisterial text before and after the Letter of the Holy Office 1949, makes this claim in the text.
The Letter was an inter office communication from one bishop to another without the signature of the Secretary of the Holy Office and it was not placed in the Acta Apostolica Sedis.So it is possible that Pope Pius XII did not see it.
However he did condone the error with his silence.
Paul:
In a separate letter to me you told me the letter of the Holy Office was heretical. With this statement you are claiming Pope Pius XII a heretic, having supposedly allowed the infection of the faithful with heresy and who did nothing to stop it.
Lionel:
To claim that there are known exceptions to the dogma ( even when you cannot name any case) is heresy for any Catholic. It is a denial of the dogma.It is changing the Nicene Creed.
However just as you were not aware that the baptism of desire is never explicit for us and it is always implicit , this could have been an oversight also of Pope Pius XII.
However just as you were not aware that the baptism of desire is never explicit for us and it is always implicit , this could have been an oversight also of Pope Pius XII.
Paul:
The contents of the letter from the Holy Office in 1949 coincides with 20 centuries of teaching from Church Fathers, Popes, Saints, Doctors of the Church, etc, as listed at www.baptismofdesire.com.
The contents of the letter from the Holy Office in 1949 coincides with 20 centuries of teaching from Church Fathers, Popes, Saints, Doctors of the Church, etc, as listed at www.baptismofdesire.com.
Lionel:
It does not coincide. No Church Father, pope,saint or Doctor of the Church inferred that the baptism of desire was explicit for us.You have not listed a single such case on www.baptismofdesire.com. You have only cited saints etc mentioning the baptism of desire.Yes the baptism of desire is a possibility.None of them have said that 1) these cases are visible in the flesh or 2) that they are exceptions to extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
Paul:
You boldly condemn all of them.
Lionel:
I do not condemn any one.I am only pointing out to a doctrinal irregularity.I am calling attention to an irrationality which was not part of the Deposit of the Faith before 1949.I respect the popes including Pope Pius XII.
Paul:
Your claim is also a direct denial of the dogma of the infallibility of the Church, as if the Church could spread heresy.
Lionel:
I affirm the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus in its traditional and 'rigorist interpretation'.The text of the dogma does not mention any exceptions.It does not mention the baptism of desire.For me there are no known exceptions. I affirm the dogma on exclusive salvation in the Catholic Church in accord with implicit for us baptism of desire and being saved in invincible ignorance.They are possibilities known only to God.
I affirm extra ecclesiam nulla salus in accord with Vatican Council II ( Ad Gentes 7) which says all need faith and baptism for salvation. For me Vatican Council II is in accord with the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.The ecclesiology of the Church is the same before and after Vatican Council II,according to magisterial documents.
I affirm extra ecclesiam nulla salus in accord with Vatican Council II ( Ad Gentes 7) which says all need faith and baptism for salvation. For me Vatican Council II is in accord with the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.The ecclesiology of the Church is the same before and after Vatican Council II,according to magisterial documents.
Paul:
Your audacity is sickening and you have lost your faith.
Lionel:
You still have not answered the TWO QUESTIONS. They are rational questions..
1) Do we personally know the dead now saved in invincible ignorance, a good conscience (LG 16) etc,can we see them, are they physically visible to us in 2014 ?
2) Since we do not know any of these cases, in real life, they are not visible to us, there are not known exceptions to the literal interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus, or Ad Gentes 7 which states 'all' need 'faith and baptism' for salvation ?
-Lionel Andrades
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