Wednesday, August 27, 2014

Either way, with or without the Sacraments the person would not be alive on earth, and so would not be an exception to all needing the baptism of water

In general God is bound to the Sacraments.This is the traditional de fide teaching.
 

George Brenner:
Sorry, Lionel but you are confusing to subjects:

1. Teaching the faith that there is no Salvation outside the Catholic Church and all must be Baptized in which we agree.

Lionel:
Yes all need Catholic Faith and the baptism of water for salvation and there are no exeptions. There are no known exceptions. De facto we do not know any exceptions.

The Church here is telling us that God is bound by the Sacraments.Without the baptism of water one cannot go to Heaven.

George Brenner:
...judgement by God of an individual after death to which we are not privy and you should not comment.

Lionel:
God will send most people to Hell since they do not have Catholic Faith and the baptism of water for salvation.
This is the teaching of the Bible (John 3:5.Mk.16:16)and the Magisterium in agreement with Tradition.
The Church here is telling us that God is bound to the Sacraments.Without the baptism of water one cannot go to Heaven.

It is not a personal judgement.




George Brenner:
God would send a person back to earth to be baptized. That is for God and God alone to determine. God himself could baptize , an angel could baptize etc etc etc beyond the pale of our puny brains.

Lionel:
In general every one needs the baptism of water. However there could be a soul saved with the baptism of desire followed by the baptism of water.
The person dies without the baptism of water but is not sent to Hell like the others. Instead he is sent back to earth only to be baptised.This is mentioned by St.Francis Xavier and the saints.

Then suppose there is a person in invincible ignorance.He could die not knowing the Gospel through no fault of his owm. God would send a preacher to instruct him and baptize him before he goes to Heaven.This was the teaching of St. Thomas Aquinas. So there are only Catholics in Heaven. They are all there with Catholic Faith and the baptism of water.

George Brenner:

Stick with the script. You have blown your whole thesis out of the water. You post every day that we cannot see the dead and yet you can see God sending a soul back to earth to be baptized.

Lionel:
We cannot see the dead of course. This includes those who are saved with the baptism of water and return to receive the baptism of water.This is a hypothetical case.
Since we cannot see the dead saved with the baptism of desire or blood these cases are not explicit exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.They are irrelevant since they are in Heaven and visible to no one in the present times.

George Brenner:

Sheer nonsense and dangerous usurping of the will of God in matters we can not see.

Lionel:
We cannot see the dead of course.So there are no exceptions to extra ecclesiam nulla salus.

This is a theological point.Is the the baptism of desire followed with the baptism of water or without it ?.


The Catechism of the Catholic Church 1257 says that God is not bound to the Sacraments.

In general God is bound to the Sacraments.This is the traditional de fide teaching.
When the Catechism says God is not bound to the Sacraments perhaps it refers to a hypothetical case, known only to God. This could be a person who dies without receiving the Sacraments and is sent back to earth for the baptism of water.

Similarly a person could die in invincible ignorance and God may choose to judge that person as not having to go to Hell. He could be sent back to be instructed and baptised with water.

Either way, with or without the Sacraments the person would not be alive on earth, and so would not be an exception to all needing the baptism of water to go to Heaven and avoid Hell.
-Lionel Andrades


If any one is saved without the baptism of water ( with the baptism of desire etc) then God will send him back to earth to be baptized with water.
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2014/08/if-any-one-is-saved-without-baptism-of.html#links



 
 
 













 
 
















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