If the Letter of the Holy Office simply referred to implicit desire and being saved in invincible ignorance and left it at that it would be fine

Fr.R:

The question is not if there are exceptions in 2014 or not. The question is if the Catechism is wrong or not. Thomas Aquinas said clearly:

“…God, Whose power is not tied to visible sacraments, sanctifies man inwardly”

 

Lionel:

I accept that a person can be sanctified within and this could lead to his choosing salvation.

I can also accept that a non Catholic could have a genuine implicit desire for the baptism of water and hypothethically God Whose power is not tied to visible sacraments can grant him mercy.Yes as a hypothetical probability since it is irrelevant to all needing the baptism of water in the Catholic Church for salvation.

So a point I am trying to make here is that I do not reject implicit desire or the ability of God to act outside the Sacraments, God being God.

Fr.R:

The question is not if there are exceptions in 2014 or not..

Lionel:

There are no defacto exceptions. I have to refer to this often since the Catechism says that the baptism of water and being saved in invincible ignorance are substitutes for the baptism of water. This is irrational.This is non traditional and heretical. It is a sin of faith.

Catholics in general say there are exceptions.

 

Fr.R:

The question is if the Catechism is wrong or not. Thomas Aquinas said clearly:

“…God, Whose power is not tied to visible sacraments, sanctifies man inwardly”

Lionel:

The Catechism is dead wrong since St.Thomas Aquinas was referring to a hypothetical case ( and that too being saved with the baptism of water.He says elsewhere God would send a preacher to the ignorant man in the forest). A hypothetical case cannot be a defacto exception to all needing the baptism of water.

This is where the Letter of the Holy Office missed the bus.If they simply referred to implicit desire and being saved in invincible ignorance and left it at that it would be fine.They instead inferred that these cases were explicit, objective for us humans. Then they concluded that these cases were exceptions to extra ecclesiam nulla salus.

The International Theological Commission in two of its papers have gone to even more ridiculous lengths. They have inferred that these cases are examples of salvation outside the Church. I don't know what they mean by outside the Church. I chuckle to myself. If someone is in Heaven he is in Heaven you cannot refer this as being  outside the Church !!

The Catechism 1257 also considers them as exceptions/defacto substitutes/ replacements for the baptism of water.(CCC 1258-1260)

So CCC 1257 says every body defacto needs the baptism of water for salvation and every does not !-Lionel Andrades