stevensperay.wordpress.com/2014/11/19/my-latest-to-rev-brian-harrison-concerning-the-dogma-on-the-churchs-oneness-in-faith/#comments
Lionel:
Lionel:
Steve,
I am affirming the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
SPERAY REPLIES:
Religious liberty has nothing to do with EENS. The fact that you think it does shows that you don’t understand the dogma at all. I even explained it to you but you edit out much of my comments.
Lionel:
For me there are no contradictions in Vatican Council II. Since LG 16,LG 8, UR 3 etc refer to cases not visible to us on earth they are irrelevant to the dogma.
SPERAY REPLIES:
Cases not visible don’t contradict the dogma as you assert.
Lionel:
So with no known salvation outside the Church , all people need to enter the Catholic Church formally to go to Heaven and avoid Hell.
SPERAY REPLIES:
WRONG. If that were so, then you have contradicted yourself by saying the hypothetical cases are possible. If you must be baptized by necessity of means to be saved, then asserting possible hypothetical cases of baptism of desire would be heretical. However, since the Church by law teaches baptism of desire, then you don’t need to be baptized by necessity of means to be saved. Therefore, there is no dogma that states as you have: “for salvation, all need to be a member of the Church in the external forum.” THOSE ARE YOUR WORDS, NOT THE CHURCH’S.
Lionel:
So it is important that all aspects of society, including politics, have Jesus as it center. Jesus as known and taught by the Catholic Church.
SPERAY REPLIES:
And DH teaches that men have a right to propagate false religion without gov. interference.
How does Dignitas Humanae square with the Syllabus of Errors?
DIGNITATIS HUMANAE DOES NOT CONTRADICT THE CHURCH’S TRADITIONAL DOCTRINE
SPERAY REPLIES:
You’re links show that you don’t understand the dogma or Vat2’s teaching.
SEDEVACANTISTS DO NOT MAKE DEFACTO – DEJURE DISTINCTION ARGUE OVER STRAWMAN
SPERAY REPLIES:
You don’t even understand Catholic sedes.
DIGNITATIS HUMANAE DOES NOT CONTRADICT THE CHURCH’S TRADITIONAL DOCTRINE
SPERAY REPLIES:
No one has taught that DH contradicts EENS. At least, as far as I know.
NO MATTER HOW YOU INTERPRET DIGNITATIS HUMANAE IF VATICAN COUNCIL II AFFIRMS EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS RELIGIOUS LIBERTY IS TRADITIONAL
SPERAY REPLIES:
WRONG. Religious liberty is another subject altogether. You’ve drawn a false conclusion that DH has something to do with EENS.
RECONCILIATION OF THE SOCIETY OF ST.PIUS X (SSPX) IS NOW POSSIBLE
SPERAY REPLIES:
Who cares? Your “popes” promote false religion and give place to the devil in front of altar in basilicas.
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Replies to Steve's comments made above.
Steve:
Religious liberty has nothing to do with EENS. The fact that you think it does shows that you don’t understand the dogma at all. I even explained it to you but you edit out much of my comments.
Lionel:
When I affirm the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus I am saying that all non Catholics in 2014 need to convert into the Catholic Church to avoid Hell.So for me it is important that all political and social legislation, has Jesus at its centre. Jesus as understood in the Catholic Church, the only Church he founded and outside of which there is no salvation.
All political legislation having at its centre God and not man and Jesus according to the Catholic Church could be a Catholic Confessional State.It is within a Catholic State that all legislation would be based upon the Gospels as interpreted by the Catholic Church. The laws would be based on one religion, the one true religion, outside of which there is no salvation.This would be similar to the papal states of the past.
In papal states, non Catholics were free to live and follow their religion but the religion of the state was Catholicism and not a pluralism of religions.
So the basis of a Catholic State and religious liberty for me, as I understand it, is the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus as it was interpreted over the centuries during the time of the papal states.
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Steve:
I even explained it to you but you edit out much of my comments.
Lionel:
I have not edited out any of your comments. If I have left something out and it was important for you, post it and I will respond to it.
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SPERAY REPLIES:
Cases not visible don’t contradict the dogma as you assert.
Lionel:
So does Vatican Council II contradict the dogma for you? Are there visible cases for you in Vatican Council II?
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Lionel:
So with no known salvation outside the Church , all people need to enter the Catholic Church formally to go to Heaven and avoid Hell.
SPERAY REPLIES:
WRONG.
Lionel:
There is no case known of someone saved without the baptism of water in 2014. You do not know of any one saved outside the Church. You do not know of any one who will be saved this year without the baptism of water and so will be an exception to extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
So all need to enter the Catholic Church formally ( with Catholic Faith and the baptism of water-Ad Gentes 7,Vatican Council II ) to go to Heaven and avoid Hell.
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Steve:
If that were so, then you have contradicted yourself by saying the hypothetical cases are possible.
Lionel:
Steve, I don't know what you mean by the above sentence.
Could you re- word it and send it to me again ?
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Steve:
If you must be baptized by necessity of means to be saved, then asserting possible hypothetical cases of baptism of desire would be heretical.
Lionel:
Every one on planet earth needs the baptism of water for salvation and there are no exceptions. Necessity of means and precepts can only be judged by God .It is not relevant for us. So the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 should not have mentioned it.Necessity of means and precept has come to us from the Letter of the Holy Office 1949.This is a new doctrine.
The baptism of desire is always hypothetical for us. It is not I am saying so.This is a fact of life.We cannot give someone the baptism of desire as a priest can give a person the baptism of water.
_________________________________
Steve:
However, since the Church by law teaches baptism of desire, then you don’t need to be baptized by necessity of means to be saved.
Lionel:
Baptism of desire and necessity of means and precepts must not be referred to with the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. It has nothing to do with the dogma for us human beings.This was the error of the Letter of the Holy Office 1949.
Since whoever is saved with the baptism of desire, or according to the necessity of means or precepts, is known only to God these cases are theoretical,hypothetical and invisible for us.So they cannot be explicit exceptions in 2014 to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
There was an injustice done to the priest from Boston.Also the excommunication was not lifted during Vatican Council II and the confusion was allowed to spread through the whole Church.
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Steve:
Therefore, there is no dogma that states as you have: “for salvation, all need to be a member of the Church in the external forum.” THOSE ARE YOUR WORDS, NOT THE CHURCH’S.
Lionel:
For salvation all need the baptism of water (CCC 1257,Vatican Council II (AG 7),Catechism of Pope Pius X etc). External forum is a phrase you use. I would say all need the baptism of water in the external forum, defacto, objectively, in the present times etc. The Church does not mention the false premise or the irrational inference but just about every one in the Church right up to the popes, have been using the inference in the interpretation of Vatican Council II.
The dogma says all need to convert into the Church for salvation. One can only convert into the Church with Catholic Faith and the baptism of water, both of which are objectively visible.
A non Catholic cannot say that he is going to convert with the baptism of desire and so would not need the baptism of water. Neither can he say that he will be a martyr and so will be saved without the baptism of water.
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Steve:
And DH teaches that men have a right to propagate false religion without gov. interference.
Lionel:
It is referring to a state with a secular Constitution.This is mentioned in one of the footnotes.At that time(1965) there were new secular states. So DH was making a defacto statement here.
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NO MATTER HOW YOU INTERPRET DIGNITATIS HUMANAE IF VATICAN COUNCIL II AFFIRMS EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS RELIGIOUS LIBERTY IS TRADITIONAL
SPERAY REPLIES:
WRONG. Religious liberty is another subject altogether. You’ve drawn a false conclusion that DH has something to do with EENS.
Lionel:
I have answered this point above. Extra ecclesiam nulla salus is basic to religious liberty and a Catholic Confessional state.
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RECONCILIATION OF THE SOCIETY OF ST.PIUS X (SSPX) IS NOW POSSIBLE
SPERAY REPLIES:
Who cares? Your “popes” promote false religion and give place to the devil in front of altar in basilicas.
Lionel:
The reconciliation of the SSPX and the sedevacantists with the Vatican is now possible since Vatican Council II does not contradict extra ecclesiam nulla salus. So the traditional teaching on other religions and Christian communities has not changed. With the dogma on exclusive salvation being in accord with Vatican Council II, there is an obligation on all Catholics to seek the Social Reign of Jesus Christ in all political legislation.
This would lead to a Catholic Confessional State, a papal state or a state in which the laws are based on the teachings of the Catholic Church.
In such a state non Catholics would be free to live according to their religion, but the state would uphold the teachings of the Church. Non Catholics would have no legal right to teach their religion to others.Error would have no legal right in a Catholic Confessional state.This state would be a natural outcome or wish, of Catholics who affirm the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
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SPERAY REPLIES:
Your “popes” promote false religion and give place to the devil in front of altar in basilicas.
Lionel:
The traditionalists and sedevacantists like the popes use an irrational inference in the interpretation of Vatican Council II and the Letter of the Holy Office 1949. So the Council appears as a break with the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. So for the popes and all Catholics, there is salvation outside the Church which contradicts the traditional teaching on other religions and the 'old' exclusive ecclesiology .The Social Reign of Jesus Christ has been made obsolete with alleged salvation outside the Catholic Church.
So the fault is not only with the popes.
-Lionel Andrades
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