Hi ...,
Siate Gesù e Maria fuori di cui non c'e salvezza.
do you know that Vatican II and the Syllabus of Piux IX (we are in the 150 year) are in contradiction?
Lionel:
For me all those who are saved (and who are mentioned in Vatican Council II (LG 16,LG 8 etc) are in Heaven.So they are not visible on earth.They are hypothetical cases and so for me they would be saved with the baptism of water. Since Ad Gentes 7 says all need the baptism of water for salvation.
Since they are no tknown to you and me, being in Heaven, they are not visible exceptions to all needing 'faith and baptism'(AG 7) for salvation. They are not exceptions( or even relevant) to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus and the Syllabus of Errors. Vatican Council II does not contradict the Syllabus of Errors.
So who is right? Vatican II or the Syllabus?
Lionel:
Both are correct, Vatican Council II and the Syllabus of Errors .There is no contradiction.Once it is known that all salvation in Heaven is invisible for us human beings this is not an issue in the Catholic Chruch. There are no visible exceptions to the dogma on exclusive salvation in the Catholic Church. LG 16,LG 8,NA 2, UR 3 refer to possibilities known only to God and who will be saved also with the baptism of water.(Even if these hypothtical cases are saved without the baptism of water, as some Catholics would say, they are invisible for us).
For example when Vatican II talks about other religions and confessions.
Lionel:
Can you cite any text in Vatican Council II which says that there are people in other religions or Christian communities known to us who are saved or will be saved without the baptism of water and Catholic faith ? There is no such text.
Vatican Council II instead refers to possibilities, hypothetical cases, accepted in principle but not known defacto, in fact, objectively.So these references(LG 16 etc) are not a contradiction to the Syllabus of Errors whose 150 anniversary is not being celebrated in the Catholic Church. Since in general the Vatican Curia, assumes that there are known exceptions to the Syllabus mentioned in Vatican Council II.
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Syllabus defines it as en error.
Lionel:
It would be an error if there were known cases. We must make the distinction for clarity , between what is visible and invisible, defacto and dejure, objective and subjective, explicit or implicit .LG 16 does not refer to explicit cases.
So Vatican II is not traditional. It simply refuse the Apostolic Tradition to make a new Church.
Lionel:
If you assume that invisible cases are visible for us then Vatican Council II is not traditional. This was the error made in the Letter of the Holy Office 1949.
Look at what its happening now trought the communion to the divorced people and the aceptation of homosexualism. This is not the Catholic Church.
Lionel:
Yes sacrilege is being committed by those who receive and give the Eucharist as such.
Only 1 thing is possible to save the “official” Church and make it again catholic. Rewrite totally Vatican II or simply deleting it and referring the doctrine until Vatican I.
Lionel:
The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Vatican must clarify that we cannot see the dead in Heaven so there are no known exceptions mentioned in Vatican Council II to the Syllabus of Errors.They must also clarify that being saved in invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire are not exceptions to extra ecclesiam nulla salus or the Syllabus of Errors. The baptism of desire etc are hypothethical for us and so cannot be a defacto exception in 2015 to the traditional 'rigorist interpretation' of Fr.Leonard Feeney.
-Lionel Andrades
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