Every human creature in the present times needs to enter the Catholic Church for salvation! Those who are taught or not taught, those who know or do not know about the Church, will be decided by Jesus.
Cardinal Marchetti in the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 wrongly assumed that there was known salvation outside the Church.So for him the baptism of desire and being saved in invincible ignorance were exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. So he came up with this new theory in the Catholic Church. He said every one does not need to convert into the Church for salvation but only 'those who know.'
This was the new Marchetti Theory based on the Marchetti Inference that there were visible and known cases of persons saved without the baptism of water in 1949.
The Marchetti Theory that only those who know about the Church need to convert was placed in Vatican Council II by Cardinal Richard Cushing and the Jesuits.The theory is based on an irrationality that of salvation in Heaven being visible on earth.
When Vatican Council II (LG 14,AG 7) refers to only those who know we have to remember that this line does not contradict the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.It also does not contradict the passage in Vatican Council II (LG 14,AG 7) which says all need faith and baptism for salvation.
So I accept Vatican Council II when it states that those who know, need to enter the Church.I leave it to God to decide who knows or is in invincible ignorance at the time of death. It does not contradict the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus which tells us that all need to be formal members of the Church in the present times.
-Lionel Andrades
I received this e-mail yesterday.
Lionel, the following teachings are irrevocable and unchanging truths for all time as posted repeatedly: (Yes)
◦“There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved.” (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215.)
◦“We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” (Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.)
◦“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441The following extract from the letter of the Holy Office from 1949 has created much confusion, modernism, fraudulent catechesis and now tragically the rampant heretical denial of the absolute necessity of belonging to the Catholic Church for salvation that is prevalent for over a half of century. (Yes)
The quote below was and is not clear and for that reason more so than at any time in Church history needs a syllabus or pronouncement from the Pope to clarify and provide faithful teaching to all to know, understand and obey.
"Therefore, no one will be saved who, knowing the Church to have been divinely established by Christ, nevertheless refuses to submit to the Church or withholds obedience from the Roman Pontiff, the Vicar of Christ on earth. " as taken from the LETTER OF THE HOLY OFFICE From the Headquarters of the Holy Office, Aug. 8, 1949 The problem word in the above quote is the word 'KNOWING' (Yes) This word has been used to open the door to heresy, poor catechesis and outright denial of Church teaching on Salvation. Liberals have used the word to mean that only if you accept or agree with what the Church teaches are you accountable to formally be Catholic otherwise Salvation can be found in endless scenarios outside the Church.
We by law must stop at a red light. See how far you will get if you do not accept or disagree with the law.
This example pales in the necessity of belonging to the Catholic Church for Salvation.
Baptism of Desire, Baptism of Blood and Invincible Ignorance must be absorbed into the following suggestion or one better worded by a Pope or council in order to correct the crisis we live in todaySuggestion: We declare, say, define, and pronounce that every human creature that is taught as Jesus and the Catholic Church commanded in teaching all nations (Every human creature in the present times! Those who are taught or not taught, will be decided by Jesus) that it is absolutely necessary for their salvation and that they must enter and remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church along with the necessity of one Baptism of water for the remission of sins and be obedient and subject to all that is holy and righteous under the Roman Pontiff. No one may plead ignorance, denial or disagreement of these truth upon hearing them(Upon hearing them ? This part is confusing) and attain Salvation.
◦“There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved.” (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215.)
◦“We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” (Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.)
◦“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441The following extract from the letter of the Holy Office from 1949 has created much confusion, modernism, fraudulent catechesis and now tragically the rampant heretical denial of the absolute necessity of belonging to the Catholic Church for salvation that is prevalent for over a half of century. (Yes)
The quote below was and is not clear and for that reason more so than at any time in Church history needs a syllabus or pronouncement from the Pope to clarify and provide faithful teaching to all to know, understand and obey.
"Therefore, no one will be saved who, knowing the Church to have been divinely established by Christ, nevertheless refuses to submit to the Church or withholds obedience from the Roman Pontiff, the Vicar of Christ on earth. " as taken from the LETTER OF THE HOLY OFFICE From the Headquarters of the Holy Office, Aug. 8, 1949 The problem word in the above quote is the word 'KNOWING' (Yes) This word has been used to open the door to heresy, poor catechesis and outright denial of Church teaching on Salvation. Liberals have used the word to mean that only if you accept or agree with what the Church teaches are you accountable to formally be Catholic otherwise Salvation can be found in endless scenarios outside the Church.
We by law must stop at a red light. See how far you will get if you do not accept or disagree with the law.
This example pales in the necessity of belonging to the Catholic Church for Salvation.
Baptism of Desire, Baptism of Blood and Invincible Ignorance must be absorbed into the following suggestion or one better worded by a Pope or council in order to correct the crisis we live in todaySuggestion: We declare, say, define, and pronounce that every human creature that is taught as Jesus and the Catholic Church commanded in teaching all nations (Every human creature in the present times! Those who are taught or not taught, will be decided by Jesus) that it is absolutely necessary for their salvation and that they must enter and remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church along with the necessity of one Baptism of water for the remission of sins and be obedient and subject to all that is holy and righteous under the Roman Pontiff. No one may plead ignorance, denial or disagreement of these truth upon hearing them(Upon hearing them ? This part is confusing) and attain Salvation.
-Lionel Andrades
Posts
6 comments:
Lionel said: "Every human creature in the present times needs to enter the Catholic Church for salvation! Those who are taught or not taught, those who know or do not know about the Church, will be decided by Jesus". as compared to: ◦“There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved.” (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215.)The pronouncement by Pope Innocent III is the perfect decree and of course it is directed only to those that are alive. It certainly is not directed to the deceased. There are problems with your quote and by example the Church has confirmed Sainthood on Catechumens/Martyrs who are certainly known to us. They were not possibilities but confirmed facts. It is not for you to question or speculate how God and Jesus welcomed them into Heaven.
George Brenner
Lionel said: "Every human creature in the present times needs to enter the Catholic Church for salvation!
Lionel:
Yes, this us what the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus says.
This is also the teaching of Vatican Council II (AG 7).
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Those who are taught or not taught, those who know or do not know about the Church, will be decided by Jesus".
Lionel:
It means they are not known to us and they are known only to Jesus. So they do not contradict the dogma nor Vatican Council II.
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as compared to: ◦“There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved.” (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215.)
Lionel:
All need to be Catholic. Yes.
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The pronouncement by Pope Innocent III is the perfect decree and of course it is directed only to those that are alive.
Lionel:
Yes. It does not say that we can know who 'knows' or does not know. It refers to all.
Those who know about the Church need to enter and those who do not know(theoretically for us), need to enter. Those who do not know have Original Sin and commit mortal sins e.g natives and pagans in the jungles.
It was because Cardinal Marchetti assumed that there was known salvation outside the Church ; we knew those who were exceptions, i.e those who did not have the baptism of water and was saved, he inferred that only those who knew need to enter the Church, as compared to those in invincible ignorance who could be saved.
So this line was inserted in Vatican Council II (AG 7,LG 14 with respect to all needing 'faith and baptism'.)
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It certainly is not directed to the deceased.
Lionel: The decased are not exceptions to the dogma in the present times. They are not exceptions as Marchetti believed they were.For him the deceased were visible exceptions to the dogma.
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There are problems with your quote and by example the Church has confirmed Sainthood on Catechumens/Martyrs who are certainly known to us.
Lionel:
They are deceased. So they are not exceptions to the dogma.
Those who are saved with the baptism of desire or blood are not an issue. It is only when it is inferred that they are exceptions to the dogma that the problem arise. It would mean they are alive to be exceptions.Cardinal Francesco Marchetti Selvaggiani made this objective error.
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They were not possibilities but confirmed facts.
Lionel:
Yes and if there were hundreds of them they would be deceased and so not relevant to the dogmatic teaching in 2015.
St.Emerentiana is not an exception to extra ecclesiam nulla salus, the Feeneyite version, in 2015.SSPX and FSSP priests usually make this objective error.
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It is not for you to question or speculate how God and Jesus welcomed them into Heaven.
Lionel:
However Jesus may welcome a deceased person,it is not relevant to the dogmatic teaching. Since people who are deceased cannot be exceptions or relevant to the dogma in the present times (2015).
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Lionel,you continue to completely miss the point. Church teaching on Baptism of Desire, Baptism of Blood and Invincible Ignorance are sound and require obedience to their teaching and as a wise friend just posted today: "If the doctrine has been abused, and it clearly has been, it is not the fault of the doctrine, but of weak men, for the baptism of desire does NOT render the sacrament of Baptism “optional” or “unnecessary”, neither does it turn the words of our Lord in John 3:5 into a “metaphor” for Baptism, and neither does it deny that true and natural water is absolutely necessary for a valid sacrament.
Go ahead and shake your fist at Pope St. Pius V, Gregory XIII, Clement XIII, Innocent III, Leo XIII, St. Pius X, Benedict XV and Pius XII; shake your fist at the greatest Doctors (and saints) of the Church to include Augustine, Cyril of Jerusalem, Gregory Nazianzen, Bernard of Clairveaux, Albert the Great, Bonaventure, Thomas Aquinas, Peter Canisius, Robert Bellarmine and Alphonsus de Liguori; shake your fist at each and every of the scholastic theologians and manualists – not a single one of whom “denied” the baptism of blood and desire, and every one of whom who weighed in on this topic affirmed the same doctrine"
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Father Feeney denied that Baptism of Desire, Baptism of Blood and Invincible could happen on earth OR in Heaven. You continually ignore that fact in your hybrid interpretation. You also dictate how God judges when you say that He must baptize with water.
Church teaching on Baptism of Desire, Baptism of Blood and Invincible Ignorance have nothing to do with teaching all that they must enter, stay or return to the Catholic Church for Salvation and be baptized with water. This idea of exceptions has no place in the discussion by you OR those that abuse the truth. Wolves in sheep's clothing have always been with us. From your posts I see that you are moving towards the truth but still misunderstand that which the Church teaches versus the abuses in what the Church teaches which are sickening and disobedient to Jesus command.
George Brenner
George Brenner said...
Lionel,you continue to completely miss the point. Church teaching on Baptism of Desire, Baptism of Blood and Invincible Ignorance are sound and require obedience to their teaching and as a wise friend just posted today
Lionel:
So where and when have I denied it? Please refer me to it.
They are possibilities. I have said this many times.
Obviously we do not know of a case in 2015. This would be known only to God. So defacto there is no such case.
St.Emerentiana is deceased. So she is not a known exception to the dogma in 2015. I cannot say that every one does not need the baptism of desire in 2015 because St.Emerentiana died without the baptism of water in the past.This would be irrational thinking.
So I accept the possibility of being saved with the baptism of desire or blood. However they are not relevant to the interpretation of Fr.Feeney. The Letter of the Holy Office assumed that they are exceptions. This was a factual mistake. How can they be exceptions to all needing faith and baptism for salvation in 2015, when we do not know and cannot know any such exception? An exception must exist in our reality to be an exception.
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: "If the doctrine has been abused,
Lionel:This doctrine on the baptism of desire and blood and invincible ignorance is not relevant to extra ecclesiam nulla salus. I am not referring to the theology of these doctrines.
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and it clearly has been,
Lionel: When the SSPX for example assume that these cases are objectively known in the present times, then it is an abuse. This could also be the error of the FSSP Monsignor you spoke to .
Since he cannot say that Vatican Council II says all need faith and baptism for salvation and so all non Catholics need to convert to avoid Hell.
For him there are objective exceptions to the dogma, in Vatican Council II, for example, LG 16 ( saved in invincible ignorance or a good conscience)_____________________
it is not the fault of the doctrine, but of weak men, for the baptism of desire does NOT render the sacrament of Baptism “optional” or “unnecessary”, neither does it turn the words of our Lord in John 3:5 into a “metaphor” for Baptism, and neither does it deny that true and natural water is absolutely necessary for a valid sacrament.
(Lionel: 'Neither does it deny that true and natural water is absolutely necessary for a valid sacrament.'Yes it does not deny it, only when you are aware that there are no objective cases in the present times. So there are no objective exceptions to all needing to be formal members of the Church with the baptism of water.
The Holy Office made an objective error in 1949 and this has been accepted by the SSPX and others.
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Go ahead and shake your fist at Pope St. Pius V, Gregory XIII, Clement XIII, Innocent III, Leo XIII, St. Pius X, Benedict XV
Lionel:
Why them? They have only mentioned implicit desire and being saved in ignorance. They have not stated that these cases are exceptions to the dogma. This was the wrong inference of the Holy Office Letter in 1949.
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and Pius XII;
Lionel:
Pope Pius XII did not correct the error in the Letter of the Holy Office during his pontificate and neither did he lift the excommunication of Fr.Leonard Feeney. He let the error persist in the Catholic Church.
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shake your fist at the greatest Doctors (and saints) of the Church to include Augustine, Cyril of Jerusalem, Gregory Nazianzen, Bernard of Clairveaux, Albert the Great, Bonaventure, Thomas Aquinas, Peter Canisius, Robert Bellarmine and Alphonsus de Liguori;
Lionel: None of them have said that there are known exceptions to the dogma.
After 1949 to justify the error, theologians began interpreting these saints using the Marchetti Inference i.e there visible exceptions to the dogma of persons saved in invincible ignorance etc.
None of these saints have said that salvation in Heaven is objectively visible on earth and these cases are exceptions to the traditional interpretation of the dogma.
This new doctrine came into the Church only in 1949.
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CONTINUED
CONTINUED
shake your fist at each and every of the scholastic theologians and manualists – not a single one of whom “denied” the baptism of blood and desire,
Lionel:
They did not have to deny the baptism of desire and blood. They could accept it.Since the baptism of desire and blood are not exceptions to the interpretation of Fr.Leonard Feeney.
So one can affirm the baptism of desire and blood AND ALSO the strict interpretation of Fr.Leonard Feeney.
If there were objective, known cases in 2015 then you could not affirm the strict interpretation of Fr.Leonard Feeney.
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and every one of whom who weighed in on this topic affirmed the same doctrine"
Lionel:
Yes but with a difference.
For me these cases are possibilities known only to God.So they cannot be exceptions to the dogma.
For others these cases are exceptions to the dogma, so they must be objective for them in the present times. This is an irrational proposition. To build ones theology on this irrational premise creates irrational theology. It is bad theology.
Yet this is the familiar Marchetti theology used in the interpretation of Vatican Council II.
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Father Feeney denied that Baptism of Desire, Baptism of Blood and Invincible could happen on earth OR in Heaven.
Lionel:
He denied there was salvation outside the Church. How can the baptism of desire and being saved in invincible ignorance refer to salvation outside the Church when objectively we do not know of any case?
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You continually ignore that fact in your hybrid interpretation. You also dictate how God judges when you say that He must baptize with water.
Lionel:
This is what the dogma says. This teaching is repeated in Vatican Council II (LG 14,AG 7).I interpret them without visible and known to us baptism of desire etc.
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Church teaching on Baptism of Desire, Baptism of Blood and Invincible Ignorance have nothing to do with teaching all that they must enter, stay or return to the Catholic Church for Salvation and be baptized with water.
Lionel: Agreed!
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This idea of exceptions has no place in the discussion by you OR those that abuse the truth.
Lionel:
It has not place in the discussion.It is irrelevant. We agree here!
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Wolves in sheep's clothing have always been with us. From your posts I see that you are moving towards the truth but still misunderstand that which the Church teaches versus the abuses in what the Church teaches which are sickening and disobedient to Jesus command.
Lionel:
The theology of the Magisterium has gone off the rails. It is bad theology to assume there are objective cases on earth, in the present times, of people who are in Heaven.
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