I received an e-mail.
Lionel,
There is no doubt in my humble mind that you are a devout Catholic. Your daily activities demonstrate an intense desire to try to do the will of God. You are absolutely correct and more importantly you are obedient to Jesus and the Church who commands us to teach ALL both Catholic and Non Catholic alike that there is no Salvation Outside the Catholic Church and we must have baptism by water in order to be saved. There is no reason to ever do anything other than to abide by this command. Therefore Baptism of desire, Baptism of Blood and Invincible Ignorance are extremely unlikely to ever come up during discussion with a Catholic or non Catholic unless you bring it up. In my entire life in untold conversations it has NEVER come up.
Having said this I must tell you that your understanding of Baptism of Desire, Baptism of Blood and Invincible Ignorance are wrong and prone to your private interpretation. Although you somewhat acknowledge their possibilities you act as if they are a null reality as judged by God in Heaven." Isaiah 40;13 Who hath forwarded the Spirit of the Lord? or who had been His councilor and taught Him?" Isaiah records in scripture with scorn and indignation. Also please reverence Romans 11:34, 1 Corinthians 2:16 and Ephesians 1:11. You say that those who attain salvation are not known or visible to us and you are partly correct. You are only correct in regards to those who are alive on this earth. That is the very reason that we never assume, project, encourage or forecast to anyone that this is a manner that they can choose from for salvation. This is the area where all save a few in the Church have failed to teach all that they must stay, return or enter into
the Catholic Church with no exceptions. Jesus commanded us to do this and there are no exceptions. While a person is alive the Church knows of and should never teach of any other path for Salvation. Lionel where you are wrong is by saying that we do not know of anyone saved by Baptism of desire, Baptism of Blood or Invincible Ignorance. Examples of non Baptized Saints who are known to us and have been recorded and taught and even mentioned in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass for centuries. Saints Perpetua and Felicity were declared Catechumen Saints as remembered at Mass.
"Vibia Perpetua, a well-to-do young woman and mother, and Felicitas, a slave who gave birth to a child three days before suffering a martyr's death, were catechumens as recorded officially by the Church for ALL to believe. Lionel it is not for you to speculate or council God on particular or individual judgement for God is God and you are not. Our responsibility, duty and command is to teach all while on earth that there is no Salvation Outside the Catholic Church and baptism by water is a necessity for salvation.
Lionel you may take solace in the following syllabus of Pope Pius IX but you not think that if Baptism of Desire, Baptism of Blood and Invincible Ignorance were not Church teaching that they would have been condemned by a syllabus after all these centuries. These conditions are most certainly misused by all save a few in The Church to project salvation for the living and that is a tragedy which will be remedied by the Church or Jesus Himself.
III. INDIFFERENTISM, LATITUDINARIANISM / Syllabus of Errors +++ Pope Pius IX
Condemned......NEVER to be undone
15. Every man is free to embrace and profess that religion which, guided by the light of reason, he shall consider true. -- Allocution "Maxima quidem," June 9, 1862; Damnatio "Multiplices inter," June 10, 1851.
16. Man may, in the observance of any religion whatever, find the way of eternal salvation, and arrive at eternal salvation. -- Encyclical "Qui pluribus," Nov. 9, 1846.
17. Good hope at least is to be entertained of the eternal salvation of all those who are not at all in the true Church of Christ. -- Encyclical "Quanto conficiamur," Aug. 10, 1863, etc.
18. Protestantism is nothing more than another form of the same true Christian religion, in which form it is given
to please God equally as in the Catholic Church. -- Encyclical "Noscitis," Dec. 8, 1849.
There is no doubt in my humble mind that you are a devout Catholic. Your daily activities demonstrate an intense desire to try to do the will of God. You are absolutely correct and more importantly you are obedient to Jesus and the Church who commands us to teach ALL both Catholic and Non Catholic alike that there is no Salvation Outside the Catholic Church and we must have baptism by water in order to be saved. There is no reason to ever do anything other than to abide by this command. Therefore Baptism of desire, Baptism of Blood and Invincible Ignorance are extremely unlikely to ever come up during discussion with a Catholic or non Catholic unless you bring it up. In my entire life in untold conversations it has NEVER come up.
Having said this I must tell you that your understanding of Baptism of Desire, Baptism of Blood and Invincible Ignorance are wrong and prone to your private interpretation. Although you somewhat acknowledge their possibilities you act as if they are a null reality as judged by God in Heaven." Isaiah 40;13 Who hath forwarded the Spirit of the Lord? or who had been His councilor and taught Him?" Isaiah records in scripture with scorn and indignation. Also please reverence Romans 11:34, 1 Corinthians 2:16 and Ephesians 1:11. You say that those who attain salvation are not known or visible to us and you are partly correct. You are only correct in regards to those who are alive on this earth. That is the very reason that we never assume, project, encourage or forecast to anyone that this is a manner that they can choose from for salvation. This is the area where all save a few in the Church have failed to teach all that they must stay, return or enter into
the Catholic Church with no exceptions. Jesus commanded us to do this and there are no exceptions. While a person is alive the Church knows of and should never teach of any other path for Salvation. Lionel where you are wrong is by saying that we do not know of anyone saved by Baptism of desire, Baptism of Blood or Invincible Ignorance. Examples of non Baptized Saints who are known to us and have been recorded and taught and even mentioned in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass for centuries. Saints Perpetua and Felicity were declared Catechumen Saints as remembered at Mass.
"Vibia Perpetua, a well-to-do young woman and mother, and Felicitas, a slave who gave birth to a child three days before suffering a martyr's death, were catechumens as recorded officially by the Church for ALL to believe. Lionel it is not for you to speculate or council God on particular or individual judgement for God is God and you are not. Our responsibility, duty and command is to teach all while on earth that there is no Salvation Outside the Catholic Church and baptism by water is a necessity for salvation.
Lionel you may take solace in the following syllabus of Pope Pius IX but you not think that if Baptism of Desire, Baptism of Blood and Invincible Ignorance were not Church teaching that they would have been condemned by a syllabus after all these centuries. These conditions are most certainly misused by all save a few in The Church to project salvation for the living and that is a tragedy which will be remedied by the Church or Jesus Himself.
III. INDIFFERENTISM, LATITUDINARIANISM / Syllabus of Errors +++ Pope Pius IX
Condemned......NEVER to be undone
15. Every man is free to embrace and profess that religion which, guided by the light of reason, he shall consider true. -- Allocution "Maxima quidem," June 9, 1862; Damnatio "Multiplices inter," June 10, 1851.
16. Man may, in the observance of any religion whatever, find the way of eternal salvation, and arrive at eternal salvation. -- Encyclical "Qui pluribus," Nov. 9, 1846.
17. Good hope at least is to be entertained of the eternal salvation of all those who are not at all in the true Church of Christ. -- Encyclical "Quanto conficiamur," Aug. 10, 1863, etc.
18. Protestantism is nothing more than another form of the same true Christian religion, in which form it is given
to please God equally as in the Catholic Church. -- Encyclical "Noscitis," Dec. 8, 1849.
__________________________________________
REPLY:
Dear ...
Thank you for your kind letter and comments.Let me clarify at the onset that I do not deny the possibility of someone being saved with the baptism of desire ( implicit desire, charity and baptism of water). I only do not posit it as an exception to the dogma. SInce obviously in 2015 we do not and cannot know any such case.
So the baptism of desire was never ever relevant or an exception to the interpretation of Fr.Leonard Feeney. The Holy Office made a factual mistake. This has not been observed by the Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary or the SSPX.
So this mistake has been carried over into Vatican Council II.
______________________________
Having said this I must tell you that your understanding of Baptism of Desire, Baptism of Blood and Invincible Ignorance are wrong and prone to your private interpretation. Although you somewhat acknowledge their possibilities (Yes they are possibilities) you act as if they are a null reality ( they are a ' null reality' for us humans. Since we cannot know who they are in the present times 2015. Of course they are known to God) as judged by God in Heaven." Isaiah 40;13 Who hath forwarded the Spirit of the Lord? or who had been His councilor and taught Him?" Isaiah records in scripture with scorn and indignation. Also please reverence Romans 11:34, 1 Corinthians 2:16 and Ephesians 1:11. You say that those who attain salvation are not known or visible to us and you are partly correct. You are only correct in regards to those who are alive on this earth. That is the very reason that we never assume, project, encourage or forecast to anyone that this is a manner that they can choose from for salvation. (Unclear) This is the area where all save a few in the Church have failed to teach all that they must stay, return or enter into
the Catholic Church with no exceptions. Jesus commanded us to do this and there are no exceptions. While a person is alive the Church knows of and should never teach of any other path for Salvation.(Agreed)
Lionel where you are wrong is by saying that we do not know of anyone saved by Baptism of desire, Baptism of Blood or Invincible Ignorance. Examples of non Baptized Saints who are known to us and have been recorded and taught and even mentioned in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass for centuries. Saints Perpetua and Felicity were declared Catechumen Saints as remembered at Mass."Vibia Perpetua, a well-to-do young woman and mother, and Felicitas, a slave who gave birth to a child three days before suffering a martyr's death, were catechumens as recorded officially by the Church for ALL to believe.(Yes it is possibile. It is possibile. It is also possible that in some way she received the baptism of water unknown to us) Lionel it is not for you to speculate or council God on particular or individual judgement for God is God and you are not. (the baptism of desire is accepted by me since it is not an exception to the dogma even when it occurs and it is known only to God ) Our responsibility, duty and command is to teach all while on earth that there is no Salvation Outside the Catholic Church and baptism by water is a necessity for salvation.(Agreed)
Lionel you may take solace in the following syllabus of Pope Pius IX but you not think that if Baptism of Desire, Baptism of Blood and Invincible Ignorance were not Church teaching (they are Church teaching and no Church document before 1949 says they are an exception to the dogma. This was the brainwave of Cardinal Marchetti. He brought this into the Church i.e if he wrote that controversial part of the Letter of the Holy Office 1949. However the magisterium accepts that Marchetti wrote that letter.They also accept his error.) that they would have been condemned by a syllabus after all these centuries. These conditions are most certainly misused by all save a few in The Church to project salvation for the living and that is a tragedy which will be remedied by the Church or Jesus Himself.
the Catholic Church with no exceptions. Jesus commanded us to do this and there are no exceptions. While a person is alive the Church knows of and should never teach of any other path for Salvation.(Agreed)
Lionel where you are wrong is by saying that we do not know of anyone saved by Baptism of desire, Baptism of Blood or Invincible Ignorance. Examples of non Baptized Saints who are known to us and have been recorded and taught and even mentioned in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass for centuries. Saints Perpetua and Felicity were declared Catechumen Saints as remembered at Mass."Vibia Perpetua, a well-to-do young woman and mother, and Felicitas, a slave who gave birth to a child three days before suffering a martyr's death, were catechumens as recorded officially by the Church for ALL to believe.(Yes it is possibile. It is possibile. It is also possible that in some way she received the baptism of water unknown to us) Lionel it is not for you to speculate or council God on particular or individual judgement for God is God and you are not. (the baptism of desire is accepted by me since it is not an exception to the dogma even when it occurs and it is known only to God ) Our responsibility, duty and command is to teach all while on earth that there is no Salvation Outside the Catholic Church and baptism by water is a necessity for salvation.(Agreed)
Lionel you may take solace in the following syllabus of Pope Pius IX but you not think that if Baptism of Desire, Baptism of Blood and Invincible Ignorance were not Church teaching (they are Church teaching and no Church document before 1949 says they are an exception to the dogma. This was the brainwave of Cardinal Marchetti. He brought this into the Church i.e if he wrote that controversial part of the Letter of the Holy Office 1949. However the magisterium accepts that Marchetti wrote that letter.They also accept his error.) that they would have been condemned by a syllabus after all these centuries. These conditions are most certainly misused by all save a few in The Church to project salvation for the living and that is a tragedy which will be remedied by the Church or Jesus Himself.
-Lionel Andrades
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