Comment. 1
I was surprised to see the claim that 'Poem of the Man God' supports the Traditional' understanding of extra ecclesiam nulla salus (EENS). Do you know where in the book that is supposedly stated?Lionel:I don't have the book with me.
I have read some of the volumes a few times.
The traditional interpretation of the dogma was there. It was very clear.
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THE POEM OF THE MAN GOD BY MARIA VALTORTA
HOW CAN THE MAGISTERIUM APPROVE EENS?
The Good Thief on the Cross or St.Emerentiana cannot be exceptions to the strict interpretation of the dogma. Since they existed centuries back. Exceptions must exist in the present times. Something or someone can only be an exception today. A possibility can be a possibility only.It cannot be an exception to the dogma today.
Every exception to all needing the baptism of water for salvation has to happen today.Otherwise it will not be an exception.
Every exception to all needing the baptism of water for salvation has to happen today.Otherwise it will not be an exception.
An exception to the dogma on salvation must happen in the present times, today,living memory, existing time, visible and concrete, March 17,2015, Feast of St.Patrick.
Something that happened in the past cannot be an exception to the dogma on March 17.
Something that will happen in the future cannot be an exception to the dogma on outside the church there is no salvation.
Something that happens in Heaven and is known only to God, cannot be an exception on earth to the dogma today;someone in Heaven cannot be an exception to all needing to convert formally into the Church on March 2017.
The message of the dogma is related to today.All need 'faith and baptism' for salvation today.All need to convert today into the Church to avoid the fires of Hell.2
Even if someone were to die without faith and baptism ( which is not de fide) we would not know of any exception today.Humanly we cannot know. These persons would be dead and in Heaven.
So if a pope, cardinal or magisterial document infers that there are exceptions today it is false.It has to be rejected.This is common sense.The dead -past, present or future- cannot be exceptions to all needing to convert into the Church today.
Cardinals Marchetti and Cushing in 1949 did not know of any exceptions.
At Vatican Council II ( 1960-1965) no one there knew of anyone saved without faith and baptism.
When Redemptoris Missio and Dominus Iesus were issued neither did Pope John Paul II and Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger know of any exceptions to the dogma.
There is no known case of salvation outside the Church i.e without the Catholic Faith and the baptism of water.
So how can the Catechism of Pope John Paul II, Dominus Iesus, Redemptoris Missio and other magisterial documents, over seen by Cardinal Ratzinger, imply that there is salvation outside the Church? Yet they do.
The magisterium has made a factual eror. So how can it approve the traditional interpretation of extra ecclesiam nulla salus. How can they say that Vatican Council II II affirms the strict interpretation of the dogma (Ad Gentes 7) and there cannot possibly be exceptions in Vatican Council II to the traditional interpretation of the Church Councils, saints and mystics.- Lionel Andrades
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2
A young Korean artist taken to Hell. Drew pictures of it.
The entrance it seems to me was similar to a very long and narrow alleyway, like an oven, low and dark and confined; the floor seemed to me to consist of dirty, muddy water emitting foul stench and swarming with putrid vermin...The bodily pains were so unbearable that though I had suffered excruciating ones in this life and according to what doctors say, the worst that can be suffered on earth for all my nerves were shrunken when I was paralyzed, plus many other sufferings of many kinds that I endured and even some as I said, caused by the devil, these were all nothing in comparison with the ones I experienced there...-St.Teresa of Avila's description of Hell.
http://www.tldm.org/news6/hell3.htm
These are the Tortures suffered by all the damned together, but that is not the end of the sufferings.Indescribable SufferingsThere are special Tortures destined for particular souls. These are the torments of the senses. Each soul undergoes terrible and indescribable sufferings related to the manner in which it has sinned.
I would have diedThere are caverns and pits of torture where one form of agony differs from another. I would have died at the very sight of these tortures if the omnipotence of God had not supported me...-St.Faustina Kowalska's description of Hell.
I would have diedThere are caverns and pits of torture where one form of agony differs from another. I would have died at the very sight of these tortures if the omnipotence of God had not supported me...-St.Faustina Kowalska's description of Hell.
There was a certain rich man, who was clothed in purple and fine linen; and feasted sumptuously every day. And there was a certain beggar, named Lazarus, who lay at his gate, full of sores,
Desiring to be filled with the crumbs that fell from the rich man' s table, and no one did give him; moreover the dogs came, and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom. And the rich man also died: and he was buried in hell. And lifting up his eyes when he was in torments, he saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom: And he cried, and said: Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, to cool my tongue: for I am tormented in this flame. And Abraham said to him: Son, remember that thou didst receive good things in thy lifetime, and likewise Lazareth evil things, but now he is comforted; and thou art tormented.
And besides all this, between us and you, there is fixed a great chaos: so that they who would pass from hence to you, cannot, nor from thence come hither. And he said: Then, father, I beseech thee, that thou wouldst send him to my father' s house, for I have five brethren, That he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torments. And Abraham said to him: They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. But he said: No, father Abraham: but if one went to them from the dead, they will do penance.
And he said to him: If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they believe, if one rise again from the dead. -Luke 16: 19: 31 Dives and Lazarus
"Then I was pushed into one of those fiery cavities and pressed, as it were, between burning planks, and sharp nails and red-hot irons seemed to be piercing my flesh."
Here Josefa repeated the multiple tortures from which no single member of the body is excluded:
"I felt as if they were endeavoring to pull out my tongue, but could not. This torture reduced me to such agony that my very eyes seemed to be starting out of their sockets. I think this was because of the fire which burns, burns... not a finger-nail escapes terrifying torments, and all the time one cannot move even a finger to gain some relief, nor change posture, for the body seems flattened out and yet doubled in two.- Sr.Joseph Menendez's description of Hell.
Alse see Dante's similar experience in Hell (Divine Comedy-Inferno)
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