Tuesday, March 3, 2015

So it is the same passage and we have interpreted it differently. You have used an irrational premise and I have avoided it.



MRyan wrote:1. Yes, Vatican Council II says all need to be formal members of the Catholic Church (with faith and baptism), [we are in agreement] but she also teaches that God is not bound by His sacraments to effect the same end (salvation). Nowhere does VCII suggest that formal external membership is intrinsic to salvation, and clearly teaches otherwise
Lionel:
The Catechism of the Catholic Church 1257 says God is not bound to the Sacraments. Vatican Council II?
MRyan:Yes, it is strongly implied in several passages within Lumen Gentium, here, for example:
"Catechumens [who are by definition among the non-Baptized] who, moved by the Holy Spirit, desire with an explicit intention to be incorporated into the Church, are by that very intention joined to her. With love and solicitude Mother Church already embraces them as her own."
Lionel:
Since you assume that these Catechumens are known in the present times and they are in Heaven without the baptism of water, it is you who imply that this is an exception to the dogma.
For me these Catechumens are not known in 2015 and they are not exceptions to the dogma.This is a reference to a hypothetical case.
So it is the same passage and we have interpreted it differently. You have used an irrational premise and I have avoided it.
So there was a choice.
_____________________________________________

This is the same teaching found in the Catechisms of Trent and the CCC.
Lionel:
The Council of Trent only refers to 'the desire thereof'. It does not state that these cases are exceptions to the dogma.
You infer that these cases are known to us in the present times and so are exceptions to the dogma. I do not infer this.
____________________________________
Note the assumption by the Church of right intention, faith and charity, without knowing with certainty that the catechumen is in a state of grace, just as she cannot know with certainty if any baptized adult is in a state of grace.
Lionel:
Yes but this is a hypothetical case for me. So it is not an explicit exception to the strict interpretation of the dogma.
For you it is an exception. So you imply it is a defacto, explicit case, known personally in 2015 . Otherwise how could it be an exception?
___________________________________

The point is, VCII clearly teaches that a catechumen may be “joined” to the Church without yet being an actual formal member (external incorporation).
Lionel:
It is not there in the text in the passage you quoted above.
-Lionel Andrades
 

No comments: