The 'mainstream' Church has to begin the reconciliation process with doctrinal truth.They have to admit that there are no exceptions to the centuries old interpretation of the dogma EENS, on March 19,2015

19 March 2015

SSPX and Unity

Posted by Fr John Hunwicke

As a beneficiary of blessed Benedict XVI's ecumenical goodwill, an Ordinariate Catholic naturally prays that the SSPX communities, to whom Benedict also reached out, might also receive the same joys and the same benefits as we received.

Lionel:

There is a problem here. The Ordinariates are interpreting Vatican Council II as a break with the strict interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.This would be expected of the SSPX too. The premise used is irrational and there is no correction coming from the Holy See.There are many reports on this issue on the Internet. It is being ignored by the Vatican.They are not saying that there cannot be any exception mentioned in Vatican Council II to the 'rigorist interpretation' of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.

_____________________

I hope that the SSPX will soon have a canonical status which will protect its distinctive charism as an authentic part of the Latin Church.

Lionel:

However like the FSSP they will be allowed to offer the Traditional Latin Mass and not affirm in public the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus (EENS).So in silence they will have to accept the Church rejecting an ecumenism of return and the need for non Christians to formally convert into the Church for salvation.

The SSPX and the SSPX Resistance are presently not expected to accept this heresy. They are independent of the Vatican Curia.

_________________________

I write this on the Feast of S Joseph, Patron of the Universal Church, a day this year made that bit less joyful by Bishop Williamson's sad if characteristic decision to create a new schism and himself to become a non-Catholic by incurring excommunication latae sententiae and conferring that same excommunication, with his own two hands, upon his consecrand. But let us today consider the SSPX itself, which so wisely dissociated itself from this Wyccamical eccentric.

Lionel:

Due to the priority given to the political Left, Bishop Richard Williamson could not be accepted in the Catholic Church,all these years after the lifting of the excommunication. This was possible for Bishop Bernard Fellay.Until March 18, 2015 Bishop Williamson did not commit any moral error, or heresy of faith.Yet there was no mercy extended to him.Even the Jubilee Year of Mercy, it  is expected, will exclude him, for political reasons.

If the Holy See chooses to interpret Vatican Council without the false premise there can be a reconciliation with the traditionalists.The announcement has first to be made by the Holy See. There is no reconciliation, now only for political reasons.

Cardinal Muller and Archbishop Di Noia assured the liberal rabbis, via La Stampa, that any reconciliation with the SSPX will not hinder 'good relations' with the Jewish Left. The cardinals were referring to Catholic doctrine acceptable to the Left.

_____________________________

Nothing is gained by the present situation between the SSPX and the 'mainstream' Church. Absolutions are given and Marriages solemnised which are of doubtful (or if you prefer it, doubted) validity.

Lionel:

Since priests in the 'mainstream'Church do not accept the strict interpretation of the dogma EENS for political reasons, they permit interfaith marriages.They do not tell the couple that they will be living in adultery.Absolutions and dispensations are easily given.

Both spouses need to be Catholic in a sacramental Catholic marriage. Since outside the Church there is no salvation.

For the mainstream Church there is salvation outside the Church i.e being saved without faith and baptism which is considered an exception to the dogma on March 19. For the Vatican Curia there are known exceptions, for example, to  all needing to formally enter the Church on March 19,2015.Cases from past centries are considered exceptions on March 19.2015. Deceased and hypothetical cases are considered objective and defacto exceptions. This was the original error in 1949 which has been accepted by the magisterium today.

The SSPX will have to overlook these interfaith marriages. Couples will have to be allowed to live in adultery and the marriage will be solemnised with some ritual or process.

_______________________________

Who gains from maintaining that situation? If some piece of canonical ingenuity, without necessarilly granting full faculties to SSPX clergy, were at least to eliminate this particular pastoral anomaly, who would be the loser? Would a shepherd who achieved this end not smell of his sheep? Would this not be Merciful? Is the SSPX not a Periphery as deserving to be reached as any other?

Lionel:

Yes there should be a reconciliation but this is not possible since the 'mainstream' Church is following the political left. This is the doctrinal position of the Vatican Curia.It is also that of Fr.John.

________________________________

The SSPX can currently set up a Mission in an area where the local bishop may have well-founded reasons for prefering this not to happen. But because of the present situation, there is nothing he can do to prevent it. Paradoxically, the Society, because it is deemed to be canonically non-existent, actually has complete freedom of action! So how does the bishop gain from this situation? Similarly, I know a town, not within these Three Kingdoms, with a well-established SSPX presence where, after Summorum Pontificum, the local bishop started up an EF Mass at exactly the same time as the SSPX Mass, thereby denying traditionally inclined laity the pastoral flexibility of two different Mass-times. The SSPX has no redress against such obvious, and childish, 'spoiling' tactics clearly designed to hamper, wound, and divide its pastoral mission.

Nobody apart from the Evil One gains from the present stand-off. If I'm wrong, tell me who does.

Lionel:

Fr.John Hunwicke also gains when he does not affirm the strict interpretation of the dogma EENS. This is accepted by the Left within and without the Church.

Fr.John  will also interpret Vatican Council II with an irrationality since he is not a Feeneyite!!? To interpret Vatican Council II in line with the centuries old interpretation of the dogma would be Feeneyism, a political term of the Jewish Left.It is a pejorative term  used  to reject the traditional teaching on salvation and the need for non Catholics to convert into the Church. Even traditionalists reject Feeneyism like the liberals.

________________________

The Apostolic Constitution Anglicanorum coetibus has a number of provisions to the effect that an Ordinary of an Ordinariate can do X or Y or Z "after consulting with the territorial bishop";

Lionel:

The priest  in the Ordinariate  is obligated to interpret Vatican Council II with an irrationality. Otherwise he will lose his canonical status. The same would apply to Fr. John.

________________________

or "after hearing the views of the Episcopal Conference". This gives an Ordinary the right to do these things without consent, but gives him a powerful incentive to act collaboratively.

Lionel:

How can the Episcopal Conference accept Vatican Council II interpreted in line with the strict interpretation of the dogma EENS ? This is unthinkable in leftist England.

_______________________

Likewise, the bishop or the conference may be the more likely to act reasonably because they know that their failure to do so could lead to unilateral action by the Ordinary.

Isn't this exactly the sort of arrangement which would enable the SSPX and the 'mainstream' Church to grow in trust?
Lionel:

The 'mainstream' Church has to begin the reconciliation process with doctrinal truth.They have to admit that there are no exceptions to the centuries old interpretation of the dogma EENS, on March 19,2015. Fr.John could help them by making an announcement on his blog saying ' We Catholics do not know of any exception to the centuries old interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. So there cannot be an exception,  in Vatican Council II to EENS'. From here there can be a process of reconciliation.

Can Fr.John make this rational statement on his blog?!

_____________________________

To move gently, perhaps through some intermediate stages, to full integration? Wouldn't this make it easier for the SSPX to move gradually and consensually without abrupt moments which might precipitate schism among those of its members who, because of past wounds, find trust the more difficult?

Who would lose?

In the present situation, the SSPX has no input into Episcopal Conferences, or the Synods in Rome ... so who, except 'liberals', gains from this muting of the witness of the SSPX? Certainly not the 'traditionalist cause' in the Church.

Lionel:

Episcopal Conferences, or the Synods in Rome use an irrational premise and conclusion in the interpretation of extra ecclesiam nulla salus and Vatican Council II. The liberals gain especially since the traditionalists, like Fr.John, are ignorant of the premise and conclusion which creates the hermenutic of rupture.

Other traditionalists who are aware of the irrationality do not want to come out into the open and rock their careers.

_______________________________

If it ceased to be irregular for a would-be seminarian to choose a SSPX seminary, might not 'mainstream' seminaries be incentivised to bring the Formation they offer more into line with what Canon Law and Veterum Sapientia require?

Lionel:

The issue is doctrine.Why would an SSPX seminarian want to go to a pontifical seminary which interprets magisterial documents with an irrational premise to reach a non traditional conclusion ?

________________________________

Market forces! Might the more bullying of the staff in 'liberal' seminaries be less inclined to 'sack' a seminarian with traditional instincts if they knew he could knock on another door, and be welcomed?

Lionel:

Would the SSPX seminary after three years have to accept the present interpretation of Vatican Council II, which is a break with the 'rigorist interpretation' of the dogma, using an irational premise and conclusion? The FSSP have to do just that.Any priest FSSP who does not obey will get a warning from the Rome Vicariate.

__________________________________

Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican seminaries have traditionally done 'exchanges'.

Lionel:

Since they all reject the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus so it was possible.

___________________________

Who loses if SSPX seminaries join in? Which part of Unitatis redintegratio encourages the warmest sentiments between Catholics, Anglicans, Orthodox but demands that Western Catholic groups which have slipped into a canonically anomalous state have got to be kept at arm's length and treated like naughty schoolboys who deserve only relentless discipline until they abase themselves sufficiently low?

Lionel:

According to Ad Gentes 7 Vatican Council II, Protestants, Anglicans and  Orthodox Christians need 'faith and baptism' for salvation. They formally need to convert into the Church according to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus ( Cantate Dominio, Council of Florence 1441) to avoid the 'fires of Hell'.The mainstream Church rejects both Ad Gentes 7 and Cantate Dominio. So the doctrinal problem originates with the Holy See and not the SSPX. They need to make the correction, if they are allowed, politically.

_____________________________

In France and England, there are hundreds of little used churches and empty presbyteries. Who would lose if the SSPX had a free hand to hoover the cobwebs out of some of them?

Lionel:

They would be permitted to use the churches if they gave up the SSPX General Chapter Statement saying that they affirm the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus with no exceptions.

-Lionel Andrades

 

http://liturgicalnotes.blogspot.it/2015/03/sspx-and-unity.html

 

If the Holy See chooses to interpret Vatican Council without the false premise there can be a reconciliation.The announcement has first to be made by the Holy See

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2015/03/if-holy-see-chooses-to-interpret.html

 

http://vaticaninsider.lastampa.it/en/the-vatican/detail/articolo/lefebvriani-lefebvrians-lefebvrianos-39847/