eucharistandmission: Edward Pentin pulls down Cardinal Muller's controversial interview ? : still available on the Vatican website

Tuesday, March 17, 2015

Edward Pentin pulls down Cardinal Muller's controversial interview ? : still available on the Vatican website

Correction: The interview is available on the Vatican website.
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20120913_interview-muller_en.html 13 September 2012

On January 13, 2015 on this blog I posted a report Cardinal Muller's doctrinal error placed on the Vatican website!.1 That report has not been removed from the Vatican website. It has been removed from Edward Penin's website or I am unable to find it if it is still there. The full text of the interview of Cardinal Muller by Edward Pentin though can also be read on the National Catholic Register and on this blog.

Here is the part where he made the common error on extra ecclesiam nulla salus.

Edward Pentin:

But do you feel there’s been a weakening of the Church’s teaching because of this underlying confusion of terminology. One example sometimes cited is that the teaching of “no salvation outside the Church” seems to have become less prominent. Can that be attributed to the Council in your view?

Cardinal Gerhard Muller:

That has been discussed, but here too there has been a development of all that was said in the Church, beginning with St. Cyprian, one of the Fathers of the Church, in the 3^rd century. Again, the perspective is different between then and now. In the 3^rd century, some Christian groups wanted to be outside the Church, and what St. Cyprian said is that without the Church, a Christian cannot be saved. The Second Vatican Council also said this: Lumen Gentium 14 says: “Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.” He who is aware of the presence of revelation is obliged by his conscience to belong publicly and, not only in his conscience, in his heart, to this Catholic Church by remaining in communion with the Pope and those bishops in communion with him. But we cannot say that those who are inculpably ignorant of this truth are necessarily condemned for that reason. We must hope that those who do not belong to the Church through no fault of their own, but who follow the dictates of their God-given conscience, will be saved by Jesus Christ whom they do not yet know. Every person has the right to act according to his or her own conscience...-National Catholic Register

Lionel:

Keep in mind that exceptions to the dogma must exist in the present times. Something or someone can only be an exception today. Every exception to all needing the baptism of water for salvation has to happen today.Otherwise it will not be an exception.

Something that happened in the past cannot be an exception to the dogma on March 17.

Something that will happen in the future cannot be an exception to the dogma on outside the church there is no salvation.

Something that happens in Heaven and is known only to God, cannot be an exception on earth to the dogma today;someone in Heaven cannot be an exception to all needing to convert formally into the Church on March 2017.

The message of the dogma is related to today.All need 'faith and baptism' for salvation today.All need to convert today into the Church to avoid the fires of Hell.

Even if someone were to die without faith and baptism ( which is not de fide) we would not know of it today. He would not be an exception to the dogma today.

So if a pope, cardinal or magisterial document infers that there are exceptions today it is false.It has to be rejected.This is common sense.The dead -past, present or future- cannot be exceptions to all needing to convert into the Church today.

there has been a development

Lionel:

How can there be a development when we do not know of any one saved outside the Church in the present times ? Who was the exception? Cardinal Muller cannot personally know of any exception.

Again, the perspective is different between then and now.

Lionel:

How can the perspective change ? There cannot be any known exception.

Cardinals Marchetti and Cushing in 1949 did not know of any exceptions.

At Vatican Council II ( 1960-1965) no one there knew of anyone saved without faith and baptism.

So where is the New Revelation? How could the dogma be different now?

He who is aware of the presence of revelation is obliged by his conscience to belong publicly

Lionel:

Yes he is obliged but is Cardinal Muller inferring that this case is an exception to the strict interpretation of the dogma. Only those 'who are aware' are obliged to enter the Church and not 'all' people in general ? I think he is implying this! This was the original mistake of cardinals Marchetti and Cushing in 1949.

They assumed that persons saved with the baptism of desire and in invincible ignorance were:-

1) Saved without the baptism of water.

2) They are known to us in the present times ( 1949 for them and 2015 for us)

3) They are now saved and in Heaven but are visible to us on earth to be explicit exceptions to the traditional interpretation of the dogma.

So every one does not need to enter the Church as the dogma taught but only those who 'know' .Since there were persons in invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire who were saved and they are known to us on earth.

But we cannot say that those who are inculpably ignorant of this truth are necessarily condemned for that reason

Lionel:

The dogma says all need to convert for salvation. All who have Original Sin need to be baptised with water in the Catholic Church. Vatican Council II (AG 7) also says 'all' need 'faith and baptism' for salvation.The Catechism of the Catholic Church 1257 says the Church knows of no means to eternal beatitude other than the baptism of water.

Cardinal Muller infers here that those who are in invincibll ignorance and will be saved or are saved, are known to us.Since they are known to us they become exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. It is implied that they are saved without the baptism of water. They are in Heaven and are objectively visible to us.

How can they be known to us for them to be exceptions to the dogma today March 17, feast of St.Patrick?

Yet he implies this. Otherwise how can these cases in invincible ignorance be exceptions.

This is a common mistake of the Magisterium.

When Redemptoris Missio and Dominus Iesus were issued neither did Pope John Paul II and Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger know of any exceptions to the dogma.

There is no known case of salvation outside the Church i.e without the Catholic Faith and the baptism of water.

Yet the Catechism of Pope John Paul II, Dominus Iesus, Redemptoris Missio and other magisterial documents, over seen by Cardinal Ratzinger, imply that there is salvation outside the Church.

Cardinal Muller has made a factual error. He infers that there are exceptions to the traditional interpretation of the dogma. In other words there are known cases of persons now in Heaven saved without the baptism of water, who are personally known to us on earth.

It is a fact of life that those saved are in Heaven and are not personally known or visible to us on earth. So how can there be exceptions to the dogma for us humans on March 17?-Lionel Andrades

January 13, 2015
Cardinal Muller's doctrinal error placed on the Vatican website!

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2015/01/cardinal-mullers-doctrinal-error-placed.html