Lionel:
"So you have not been able to cite any text from Quanto Conficiamur Moerore or the Council of Trent which says there are exceptions to the traditional interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus."
This was the inference made in the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 by Cardinal Francesco Marchetti Selvaggiani. This theory was a basis for the new Cushingism doctrine.You agree that there are no exceptions mentioned in these documents to the rigorist interpretation of extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
You initially said.'If the Church ever actually held the rigorist interpretation of extra ecclesiam nulla salus, then she threw it away long before 1949. Pope Pius XI rejected the rigorist interpretation in his encyclical Quuanto Conficiamur Moerore. Trent rejected it...'
There is NO TEXT which says that salvation in Heaven is visible to us on earth to be exceptions to the centuries old interpretation of extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
There is NO PRECEDENT for rejecting the Feeneyite version of the dogma.Not a single magisterial text before 1949 says there are exceptions to the traditional interpretation of the dogma. Not a single one!
So Marchetti's theory was just theory.It was a personal inference.
So Marchetti's theory was just theory.It was a personal inference.
wineinthewater:
CCC 1257 tells us “God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.” If water baptism is absolutely necessary, then God is in fact bound by the Sacraments.
Lionel:
Did Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith know of someone saved without the baptism of water ? How could he say that God was not limited to the Sacraments?
Was there any magisterial document before 1949 which said there are known exceptions to the dogma? None!
So Cardinal Ratzinger has used the Marchetti-Cushing premise here. It is irrational and contradicts the dogma, and other magisterial documents.
CCC 1257 also contradicts the Principle of Non Contradiction. It says God knows of no means to eternal beatitude other than the baptism of water and also says God is not limited to Sacraments. Every one defacto needs the baptism of water for salvation but some do not?!
The Catechism is contradictory at CCC 1257. It is also heretical. I am sorry I have to point it out.I wish it was done by someone else.
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wineinthewater:
But the catechism goes much farther than 1257:
But the catechism goes much farther than 1257:
1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.
Lionel:
Once again : do we know of any case of someone saved with the baptism of desire or blood on April 11,2015?
No we do not. So the baptism of desire and blood are not exceptions or relevant to the dogma.
The dogma says all need the baptism of water and Catholic Faith for salvation. So in these hypothethical cases, we can assume that they received the baptism of water and then went to Heaven.
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wineinthewater:
1259 For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.
Lionel:
The same as above. We can choose to interpret it with the Marchetti-Cushing irrational premise and inference or with traditional Feeneyism, which says there are no exceptions and there cannot be an exception to the dogma for us human beings.
-Lionel Andrades
We have two options. We can interpret the text either way. One way is traditional and the other is irrational http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2015/04/wineinthewater-lumen-gentium-14.html
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April 12,2015: Divine Mercy SundayA vivid presence suddenly swept over me and I was caught up in spirit befor the majesty of God. I saw how the Angels and the Saints of the Lord give glory to God. 'The glory of God is so great that I dare not try to describe it, because I would not be able to do so, and souls might think that what I have written is all there is.
All that has Come forth. from God returns to Him in the same way and gives Him
perfect glory. (Diary 1604)
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