wineinthewater:
Lumen Gentium 14 specifically says that Catechumens are inside the Church. If they had received water baptism, they would no longer be catechumens. But LG 15 goes farther: “Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.” Since LG 14 says that there is no salvation outside the Church, these must be inside the Church despite their lack of baptism or even knowledge of the Church.
Lionel:
We can always interpret Vatican Council II with traditional Feeneyism or irrational Cushingism.
Feeneyism says every one needs to be a formal member of the Church, with faith and baptism, for salvation and there are no exceptions.
Cushingism says every one needs to enter the Church with faith and baptism for salvation but there are exceptions; there are known exceptions, so really every one does not need to enter the Church.
Cushingism says every one needs to enter the Church with faith and baptism for salvation but there are exceptions; there are known exceptions, so really every one does not need to enter the Church.
Lumen Gentium 14 specifically says that Catechumens are inside the Church. If they had received water baptism, they would no longer be catechumens.
Lionel:
So these cases are not known to us and so they do not contradict the strict interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.This is the Feeneyite interpretation.
And these cases are known to us personally in the present times and so they do contradict the traditional dogma on salvation which said all needed to be formal members of the Church, all needed 'faith and baptism' All do not need it ! We know of exceptions. This of course comes from the Marchetti-Cushing premise.
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But LG 15 goes farther: “Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.”
Since LG 14 says that there is no salvation outside the Church, these must be inside the Church despite their lack of baptism or even knowledge of the Church.
Lionel:
So Lumen Gentium here is referring to cases known to us in the present times or Lumen Gentium assumes that we know that these cases are known only to God and so cannot be an exception to the dogma on salvation. Again we have two options, We can interpret the text either way. One way is traditional and the other is irrational.
It should be clear by now that the text is not a break with the past. It is the inference, we choose, that creates the hermeneutic of rupture or continuity.
For me, Vatican Council II affirms traditional exclusivist ecclesiology.It is Feeneyite.
-Lionel Andrades
April 11, 2015
Ad Gentes 7 can be interpreted with Feeneyism or Cushingism
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April 12,2015: Divine Mercy Sunday
O my God, how I pity those people who do not believe in eternal life; how I pray
for them that a ray of mercy would envelop them too, and that God would clasp
them to His fatherly bosom. (Diary 780)
I learned in the Heart of Jesus that in heaven itself there is a heaven to which not all, but only chosen souls, have access. Incomprehensible is the happiness in which the soul will be immersed. 0 my God, oh, that I could describe this, even in some little degree. Souls are penetrated by His divinity and pass from brightness to brightness, an unchangeable light, but never monotonous, always new though never changing. 0 Holy Trinity, make yourself known to souls! (Diary 592)
I learned in the Heart of Jesus that in heaven itself there is a heaven to which not all, but only chosen souls, have access. Incomprehensible is the happiness in which the soul will be immersed. 0 my God, oh, that I could describe this, even in some little degree. Souls are penetrated by His divinity and pass from brightness to brightness, an unchangeable light, but never monotonous, always new though never changing. 0 Holy Trinity, make yourself known to souls! (Diary 592)
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