Steve Speray:
Yes, baptism of desire is true and must be believed by Catholics since it’s taught by the Church.
Lionel:
Yes it can believed but not as an exception to extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
So yes a person can be saved with the baptism of desire and we do not know any case in the present times.
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I’ve written extensively on the subject on this blog and in my book which you’ll find at my bookstore.
Lionel:
For you these cases are known in April-May 2015 and so they are exceptions to the traditional interpretation of the dogma.
You also support the factual error in the Marchetti Letter.
Also you are unaware of the irrational theology, based on apparitions in CCC 1257,846 etc.
Since you also unknowingly use, Apparition Theology.
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No, Jesus was not lying anymore than when He said that the mustard seed becomes the biggest of all shrubs (Mk 4:32) or when He said that “all who take the sword will perish by the sword.” (Matt. 26:52). Baptism of Desire is the doctrine that concerns extraordinary circumstances.
Lionel:
Fine but do not consider it an extra ordinary way in the present times.This would be irrational and heretical. There is only one way. It is Jesus in the Catholic Church. The way to salvation is 'faith and baptism'. The baptism of desire cannot be chosen or given or administered.If it happens it would be grace and it would be known only to God.
Zero cases of something cannot be considered an exception to all needing to formally enter the Church to avoid Hell.
Without this error Vatican Council II does not contradict Tradition doctrinally.
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Jesus was speaking under ordinary circumstance in John 3:5 as the Church taught in the Roman Catechism. Correct nuances are critical when understanding doctrine, Scripture, law, etc.
Lionel:
John 3.5 and Mark 16:16 refer to the ordinary means of salvation.We humans cannot know of an extra ordinary means of salvation. So there cannot be any defacto exception to the ordinary means of salvation.
-Lionel Andrades
https://stevensperay.wordpress.com/2014/11/19/my-latest-to-rev-brian-harrison-concerning-the-dogma-on-the-churchs-oneness-in-faith/
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1 comment:
It comes down to the words may, might and will. All practicing Catholics who die in a state of grace free from mortal sin WILL go to Heaven and this is what must be taught to all without any exceptions. There are NEVER exceptions to "no salvation outside the Catholic Church. Either you will die as a Catholic or God will incorporate a person into the Catholic Church at the time of their particular judgment because of the sanctity that God finds in them as worthy to enter Heaven. There are NO non Catholics in Heaven. A person who earns Heaven through Baptism of Desire is a Catholic. There are never exceptions.
In Christ,
George Brenner
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