Tuesday, July 7, 2015

How did the new ecclesiology develop?

How did the new ecclesiology develop ?
Answer: With the four  following mistakes.
1. The Church Fathers and the Medieval Fathers  did not make a link between baptism of desire ( BOD), baptism of blood (BOB) and extra ecclesiam nulla salus (EENS).It was liberal theologians who made the connection.It was done best by Cardinal Francesco Marchetti Selvaggiani in the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 to the Archbishop of Boston.
2.No magisterial document before 1949 connects BOD, BOB  with EENS.It was separated.
3.No magisterial document before 1949 says BOD,BOB cases are explicit for us in daily life.No church document says these cases are objective for us .We cannot judge who will be saved with BOD or BOB, with or without the baptism of water (BOW).
4.In our personal experience we do not know anyone saved outside the Church i.e without 'faith and baptism'. We do not know any one who contradicts the dogma EENS which says all need to be formal members of the Church, all need the baptism of water in the Catholic Church for salvation.
Conclusion:
 Pope Pius XII, Cardinal Francesco Marchetti Selvaggiani and Cardinal Alfredo Ottaviani  could not have personally known someone saved outside the Church.
 So we can affirm the traditional 'rigorist interpretation' of the dogma EENS since there are no pesonally known exceptions and there are none mentioned in magisterial documents.If there were it would be a factual error.
So there are no exceptions to John 3:5, Mk.16:16.
Fr.Leonard Feeney was correct and Pope Pius XII was factually wrong and teaching heresy.
The ecclesiology of the Catholic Church has not changed since there is no new revelation.The new ecclesiology is based on the Marchetti error.
The old ecclesiology is applicable to the Traditional Latin Mass and the Novus Ordo Mass.It can be affirmed by the new Catholic Movements and all Catholics in general.
-Lionel Andrades

9 comments:

George Brenner said...

I re read the Letter of the Holy Office of 1949 yet again for the umpteenth time. It appears that the letter condemned Father Feeney for the refusal to teach and believe that salvation by Baptism of Desire or Baptism of Blood were possible. Further more " "only by an unconscious desire or longing," coupled with "supernatural charity" were noted as conditions for the possibility of salvation as judged worthy by God, dejure. Pope Pius XII also made the point of possible salvation by that "certain unconscious yearning and desire," and emphasized that these he by no means excludes from eternal salvation, but on the other hand states that they are in a condition "in which they cannot be sure of their salvation" which is no small point... since "they still remain deprived of those many heavenly gifts and helps which can ONLY be enjoyed in the Catholic Church." Once again I must stress the use of the 'ONLY'
For the most part the great majority of Catholic catechesis taught the rigorist position that there is no salvation outside the catholic Church well in the 1960's. It was VCII that allowed the liberal change in catechesis that changed the absolute formula on salvation to implying, encouraging, predicting and presuming that these other possible means of being incorporated into the Catholic Church were known and defacto. This has been the problem which created the crisis in the Church.
What the letter of 1949 failed to do was to say that even with the possibility of these conditions of sanctity outside of formal and visible membership within the Catholic Church as described, no one within the Catholic Church is excused to teach all without exception that they must remain, return, enter or convert to the catholic Church and die free from mortal sin as the ONLY means where by salvation can be assured. They never said in the letter that there are never exceptions which was a significant oversight. The letter and VCII crossed the line of God's possible mercies as discussed for centuries and promoted and teaches them as a known or given options that one may possess or choose from as encouraged by Catholics. That is heresy.

JMJ,

George Brenner

Gisèle Demers said...

The new ecclesiology was developed in 1960 with the Vatican II so called Council... Remember that in history with the Protestant Revolution, the French Revolution and the American Revolution...the greatest interest was to destroy the Catholic Faith...(ex.: birth of FreeMasons...)With the illuminist period of new ideologies such as freedom of religion, freedom of thoughts and opinions, the promotion of the so called human dignity...and all those socialist ideologies: naturalism, pantheism, individualism...that psychology took and elaborated... We became centered upon man, evolving towards the cult of man in opposition to the cult rendered to God...
To promote the cult of man, we must destroy the Woman (Voltaire) in other words...destroy the Catholic Church...Freemasonry has this passion and greed for power and control...and will do anything to reach its goal...so it chose to infiltrate within the Catholic Church...its communist ennemies...In religious orders, in seminaries, and did so for more than fifty years secretly...with the intention of one day having these communities raise up to the Vatican...and have one of them gain the seat of Peter...Pope Pius X inspired by God...detected this...and wrote his encyclical Pascendi...on Modernism...the heresy that is the synthesis of all heresies...
These despicable beasts took over the seat of Rome (John XXIII) who boldly took the name of an anti-pope in the 1500's approx...open this council...not to correct heresies or clear doctrine ...but to reform...integrate all religions into one big world church...which is this Vatican II Church or Novus Ordo Church...which has nothing to do with Catholicism...They only infiltrated our institutions and took our liturgies and constitution and reformed them, leaving only an appearance of Catholicism in order not to excite Catholics in the pews...but likes termines in a wall...everything is destroyed...
Sedevecantists are people that are aware that someone who states to be the pope...cannot be a heretic...cannot publically proclaim error...as a true pope is protected by the Holy Ghost against error...in regards to faith and moral...
When you reform liturgies (like the ones of all the sacraments - particularly the liturgy of the mass...who was always known to be the non bloody, sacrifice of Christ on calvary, renewed for remission of sins...and Paul VI took the liturgy of that mass and reformed it to be a mere souvenir of the last supper...There is a law in the Church that states : Lex Orande, lex credente...What you pray states and affirms what you believe...That is why the liturgies, the disciplines, the doctrine and the constitution of the Church must be reflecting the doctrine of faith that is taught by Christ...or else, we publically testify to a heretical doctrine of faith and we become apostates...That is what Vatican II is doing...That is what is going on in our liturgies, in our churches...and that is why we must back out...and say that these men are not true popes for having done this, but they are imposters...John XXIII, Paul VI, way up to this Bergoglio...who is the most evident modernist socialist anti-christian representative...These people have no interest, other than to promote a world wide religion with no specific doctrine as truth...all relativism...all rationalism...to satisfy the interest of Protestants, atheists, communists and name it...
Sedevecantism is saying...these men are not true popes...therefore the Catholic Church does not have a pope...the seat is Vacant...and the Catholic Church is in eclipse...but not in the Vatican...only visibly present in the members that are truly committed to Christ's teachings. I hope I made myself clear in this presentation...God bless you!

Catholic Mission said...

George.
I re read the Letter of the Holy Office of 1949 yet again for the umpteenth time. It appears that the letter condemned Father Feeney for the refusal to teach and believe that salvation by Baptism of Desire or Baptism of Blood were possible.
Lionel:
Yes.
Why is BOD and BOB relevant to the dogma for the Holy Office 1949?
Before 1949, BOD and BOB were accepted but were considered separate from the dogma.See the four points above.There was no link in the past.
It was a mistake for the Holy Office to mention BOD and BOB with reference to EENS.
______________________________


Further more " "only by an unconscious desire or longing," coupled with "supernatural charity" were noted as conditions for the possibility of salvation as judged worthy by God, dejure.
Lionel:
But this would only be known to God. Why mention it here. Is he implying that these cases are known to us, and we judge all this about 'supernatural charity' etc ?
Yes! He infers these cases of BOD and BOB are explicit and so are exceptions to traditional EENS. So he criticizes Fr.Feeney and the St.Benedict Center.Only if they are explicit would they be relevant to EENS and Fr.Leonard Feeney.

This error, the mix up between what is visible and invisible, dejure and defacto, is seen in the rest of the Letter of the Holy Office 1949.

Catholic Mission said...

Gisele:

The new ecclesiology was developed in 1960 with the Vatican II so called Council...

Lionel:
VATICAN COUNCIL II SAYS
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2015/02/vatican-council-ii-says.html
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Remember that in history with the Protestant Revolution, the French Revolution and the American Revolution...the greatest interest was to destroy the Catholic Faith...(ex.: birth of FreeMasons...)With the illuminist period of new ideologies such as freedom of religion...
Lionel:
I would agree with much of what you have written
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Sedevecantists are people that are aware that someone who states to be the pope...cannot be a heretic...cannot publically proclaim error...as a true pope is protected by the Holy Ghost against error...in regards to faith and moral...
Lionel:
What about Pope Pius XII? He made a factual error.The liberal theology being used by Rome and the sedes comes from the error during his pontificate. Could it have been encouraged by the Masons ?
Even the traditionalist Archbishop Lefebvre accepted it. Fr.Cekada has accepted it. This can be seen in his article on Feeneyism is mortal sin.
So if we identify this error and avoid it can we avoid modernism in VC2 at least?
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When you reform liturgies (like the ones of all the sacraments - particularly the liturgy of the mass...who was always known to be the non bloody, sacrifice of Christ on calvary, renewed for remission of sins...and Paul VI took the liturgy of that mass and reformed it to be a mere souvenir of the last supper...
Lionel:
Mass in Italian is still the Sacrifice of Jesus for me.
____________________

There is a law in the Church that states : Lex Orande, lex credente...What you pray states and affirms what you believe...That is why the liturgies, the disciplines, the doctrine and the constitution of the Church must be reflecting the doctrine of faith that is taught by Christ...or else, we publically testify to a heretical doctrine of faith and we become apostates...
Lionel:
Heretical doctrine of faith?
_____________________

...Sedevecantism is saying...these men are not true popes...therefore the Catholic Church does not have a pope...the seat is Vacant...and the Catholic Church is in eclipse...but not in the Vatican...only visibly present in the members that are truly committed to Christ's teachings.
Lionel:
I undestand.
Still what about the issue of Pope Pius XII, EENS and VC2? Is there not a heretical doctrine of faith among the sedevantists?

George Brenner said...

Lionel, I am sure that you know exactly why BOB, BOD, Inv. Ignorance, Perfect Charity, subconscious yearning etc were all mentioned in the letter. Since many of the Kennedy's along with some of Cardinal Cushing's non Catholic relatives were affronted by the truth of 'No Salvation Outside the Catholic Church' Father Feeney was made the scapegoat. No one came to his defense. Can you imagine if Pope Eugene IV and any of the numerous Popes or Saints throughout the ages simply repeated verbatim what they said and lived by for centuries on salvation, this issue would have never gained legs or momentum. The letter was used by the implementers of VCII to undermine the Church and gave salvation a new twisted and distorted catechesis. It is no coincidence that after Father Feeney was rebuked that the great chastisement, irreverence, scandal and perversion began to run rampant.

George Brenner said...


I would encourage anyone to read everything they can research and draw their own conclusions from what was said by Jean Guitton, the only Catholic layman to serve as a peritus at the VCII Council. His interaction with Popes is most revealing.

Gisèle Demers said...

Thanks for your feedback,

It gives me an opportunity to clear up some thoughts that might have been expressed ambiguously...I am French and sometimes when you write in a different language, it does not come out straight; I apologize...

In reference to liturgies
When I speak about lex orande, lex credente...and that changes are made in the liturgy...I do not refer to different rites...ex Latin, Greek...We must clear this point...There are accidental changes...and substantial changes...
Some rites might have different prayers or different rubrics...but if it doesn not change the theology of the mass and its original meaning...than it is Catholic...It's like dealing with a different dialect in language or adjusting the liturgy to a culture...
I am refering to substantial changes...and that is what we discover in Paul VI mass...(I recommend the book: Work of Human Hands...written by Father Cekada) for the details...When you study the changes that have been made to the Canon and the liturgy of the traditional mass, you reach the conclusion that it is no longer the same mass - the theology is different...So much for this...

In regards to Pius XII...and I am not sure exactly what you are referring to, all I can say is that Pius XII was leniant towards the Modernist: Montini, Roncalli...and heretics...Ex.: He was asked to excommunicate Teillard de Chardin...but refused to do it...Montini betrayed priests to Russian communist government...He revealed their names... and these priests were either persecuted, killed, send to the goulag...He was doing that at the Vatican...and when Pius XII found out...what did he do...He send him as archbishop of Milan...That man should have been excommunied...Paul VI should have been kicked out of the Vatican and excommunied...The same with Roncalli (John XXIII)..­. As a seminarian he would be friends with heretics by name...he was teaching heretical doctrine to seminarians...In France, as pontifical representative he was caught assisting FreeMason meetings during the night...dressed as layman...That man should have been defrocked as priest...He was suspected as Modernist...in his personal file in Rome...Pius XII, influenced by Modernists, approved liturgical changes that latter on would ease the liturgical reform controlled by Paul VI...We suspect that it was at the end of his life and he was illed and they probably forced him to sign ...I don't know...but Pius XII admitted at the end of his life that he made errors...he was so soft...to lenient...
We must remember that popes are not perfect, they are sinners like you and I...and can make errors...We must remember however, that the infallibility of a pope refers to public magisterial teaching - that refers to doctrinal faith and moral...In those two categories, a true pope is infallible...faith and moral...

Thanks for giving me the chance to precise my thoughts.
God bless you.

Catholic Mission said...

Lionel:
I agree with what you have written about lex orande, lex credente.

This part is confusing for me.
'...but if it doesn not change the theology of the mass and its original meaning...than it is Catholic...'

I am aware that the theology of the Mass has been changed in all rites. The change is there also in the Mass offered by Fr. Anthony Cekada.

For me personally theology has not changed at the Mass. It has not changed with Vatican Council II. I have sent you a link( VATICAN COUNCIL II SAYS) which shows you how I interpret VCII without making the error. which comes from the pontificate of Pope Pius XII.
These links may be useful from my blog. See the tag IAAD on the right hand side.

Bishop Sanborn, Fr.Cekada agree : in the present times there are no explicit exceptions to EENS
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2015/07/bishop-sanborn-frcekada-agree-in.html


We do not know of a BOB and BOD exception in the present times. Here we can all agree since it is common knowledge
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2015/07/we-do-not-know-of-bob-and-bod-exception.html

It is a fact of life that we do not know any one saved with BOD or BOD today ( June 30,2015) Do you not agree here? Do not your readers agree here?
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2015/06/it-is-fact-of-life-that-we-do-not-know.html
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I don't know...but Pius XII admitted at the end of his life that he made errors...he was so soft...to lenient...
Lionel:
It was an innocent error and I thinks traditionalists and sedevacantists too, today, without knowing are making the same error. It really is a heresy but they don't know it.
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- the theology is different...So much for this...
Lionel:
Yes but it also is the theology of Fr.Cekada and the sedevacantists?





Catholic Mission said...

Lionel, I am sure that you know exactly why BOB, BOD, Inv. Ignorance, Perfect Charity, subconscious yearning etc were all mentioned in the letter. Since many of the Kennedy's along with some of Cardinal Cushing's non Catholic relatives were affronted by the truth of 'No Salvation Outside the Catholic Church' Father Feeney was made the scapegoat. No one came to his defense.
Lionel:
Yes
_______________
Can you imagine if Pope Eugene IV and any of the numerous Popes or Saints throughout the ages simply repeated verbatim what they said and lived by for centuries on salvation, this issue would have never gained legs or momentum. The letter was used by the implementers of VCII to undermine the Church and gave salvation a new twisted and distorted catechesis.
Lionel:
Yes. This is true.
_______________

It is no coincidence that after Father Feeney was rebuked that the great chastisement, irreverence, scandal and perversion began to run rampant.