Monday, July 27, 2015

How should we interpret Vatican Council II ?





-Lionel Andrades

7 comments:

George Brenner said...

At the close of VCII Pope Paul VI said: Taking conciliar custom into consideration and also the pastoral purpose of the present council, the sacred council defines as binding on the church only those things in matters of faith and morals which it shall openly declare to be binding"

There were no binding definitions!

Pope Paul VI went on to say that: " In view of the pastoral nature of the council, it avoided any extraordinary statements endowed with the note of infallibility"

Cardinal Ratzinger also made this well known statement: " The truth is that this particular council defined NO dogma at all and DELIBERATELY chose to remain on a modest level, as MERELY a pstorial council"

How are we to interpret VCII? The answer is very simple. We are to interpret VCII in light of the previous councils throughout the centuries that did define, declare and demand consistent and unchangeable catechesis and obedience on 'No Salvation Outside the Catholic Church' along with many other issues which are to be held as true.

In Christ,

George Brenner

Catholic Mission said...

George:
How are we to interpret VCII? The answer is very simple..
Lionel:
Yes.
Is Lumen Gentium 16 for you is ' being implicit, invisible for us, known only to God, not explicit, not seen in the flesh...?'. If it is so for you then LG 16 is not an exception to previous Church Counncils, over the centuries.Nothing in Vatican Council II contradicts the dogma on salvation.

If it is explicit then LG 16 is a break with the past centuries for you.Vatican Council II would a break with the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.

For the SSPX, the St. Benedict Centers and the sedevacantists, Lumen Gentium 16 is an exception to extra ecclesiam nulla salus and the rest of Tradition. So Vatican Council II becomes a break with the past.

So is LG 16, LG 8, UR 3, NA 2 etc explicit or implicit is important for interpretating Vatican Council II.


George Brenner said...

There are two VCII's. The council of words that were said in encyclicals, writings and the catechism. That council is and was protected by the Holy Ghost. Then there is the other VCII which is the one of rampant poor catechesis, error, ambiguity and heresy perpetrated by those liberals who seek to destroy the church with private interpretations, novel and improper implementation and a free for all what do you think mentality. In my humble opinion this crisis will only be corrected by a Pope, a syllabus or the second coming of Christ. VCII went out of its way to declare that ALL works of the council must be in continuity with past Church teaching and this was and is not the case.

JMJ,

George Brenner

Catholic Mission said...

George:
VCII went out of its way to declare that ALL works of the council must be in continuity with past Church teaching and this was and is not the case.

Lionel:
Yes and this is not the case - and it does not help when the SBC, SSPX, CMRI and others, just like the liberals, interpret LG 16 as being explicit, seen in the flesh, objectively known to us in the present times and so - an exception to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.

This point could be on the top of the list in a new Syllabus of Errors.

George Brenner said...

It is at the top of the list !!!!! and the list is long of the issues which must be addressed.

As an example the following was ALL condemned:
III. INDIFFERENTISM, LATITUDINARIANISM / Syllabus of Errors +++ Pope Pius IX

Condemned......NEVER to be undone

"15. Every man is free to embrace and profess that religion which, guided by the light of reason, he shall consider true. -- Allocution "Maxima quidem," June 9, 1862; Damnatio "Multiplices inter," June 10, 1851.

16. Man may, in the observance of any religion whatever, find the way of eternal salvation, and arrive at eternal salvation. -- Encyclical "Qui pluribus," Nov. 9, 1846.

17. Good hope at least is to be entertained of the eternal salvation of all those who are not at all in the true Church of Christ. -- Encyclical "Quanto conficiamur," Aug. 10, 1863, etc.

18. Protestantism is nothing more than another form of the same true Christian religion, in which form it is given
to please God equally as in the Catholic Church. -- Encyclical "Noscitis," Dec. 8, 1849"

In Christ,

George

Catholic Mission said...



George:
It is at the top of the list !!!!! and the list is long of the issues which must be addressed.

As an example the following was ALL condemned:
III. INDIFFERENTISM, LATITUDINARIANISM / Syllabus of Errors +++ Pope Pius IX

Condemned......NEVER to be undone

"15. Every man is free to embrace and profess that religion which, guided by the light of reason, he shall consider true. -- Allocution "Maxima quidem," June 9, 1862; Damnatio "Multiplices inter," June 10, 1851.
Lionel:
So Vatican Council II can be interpreted as not affirming this.Since Ad Gentes 7 and Lumen Gentium 14 say all need faith and baptism for salvation.
________________________

16. Man may, in the observance of any religion whatever, find the way of eternal salvation, and arrive at eternal salvation. -- Encyclical "Qui pluribus," Nov. 9, 1846.
Lionel:
Vatican Council II does not affirm this for me.AG 7 and LG 14 contradicts it.
__________________________

17. Good hope at least is to be entertained of the eternal salvation of all those who are not at all in the true Church of Christ. -- Encyclical "Quanto conficiamur," Aug. 10, 1863, etc.

Lionel:
Vatican Council II contradicts this with AG 7 which says all need faith and baptism.
AG 7 is not contradicted by LG 16, if LG 16 is considered invisible, and not objective.
AG 7 is contradicted if LG 16 is considered visible in the flesh in 2015, and objective. It then becomes an exception to extra ecclesiam nulla salus. This is how most Catholics interpret LG 16 and Vatican Council II. The fault is not with the Council.
____________________

18. Protestantism is nothing more than another form of the same true Christian religion, in which form it is given
to please God equally as in the Catholic Church. -- Encyclical "Noscitis," Dec. 8, 1849"
Lionel:
Ad Gentes 7 says all need the baptism of water and Catholic Faith. Catholic Faith includes the Sacraments and the faith and moral teachings of the Church.They help a Catholic, avoid mortal sin and preserve Sanctifying Grace. Protestants do not have Catholic Faith.
_____________________

Vatican Council II for me does not contradict the Syllabus of Errors.It would contradict the Syllabus of Errors for the Vatican Curia, the SSPX, SBC and sedevacantists.Since for them LG 16 refers to objective cases.So it is an exception to EENS.

George Brenner said...

The complete scope of the syllabus of errors that I cite that were condemned by Pope Pius IX can be read at:
THE SYLLABUS OF ERRORS CONDEMNED BY PIUS IX

www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9syll.htm





THE SYLLABUS OF ERRORS CONDEMNED BY PIUS IX . ... 1849, Encyclical "Noscitis et nobiscum," Dec. 8, 1849, Allocution "Singulari quadam," Dec. 9, 1854,

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Lionel, once again I salute your life long work and defense of the true teaching on Salvation. We agree on very much in our defense of the faith. I disagree that if a Pope(Francis or some future Pope) were to call for and decree a syllabus of errors that it might issue errors. It would be protected by the Holy Ghost and free from error. A syllabus is meant to correct specific teachings and opinions held as being true when in fact they are either wrong and/or heretical. Generations have come and gone and Catholics have been dumbed down by poor and/or heretical catechesis amongst which salvation although the most important is one of a hundred critical problems that need to be remedied. By example there are six members of the United States supreme Court that claim to be Catholic. In the recent five to four vote in the US to legalize sodomy and make it the law of the land why did Pope Francis under his authority that all creatures must be subject to the Pope not communicate to these catholics that they MUST protect the sanctity of marriage as being between a man and a woman and threaten ex communication for disobedience in their vote. You see Lionel the issues that a Catholic MUST believe go well beyond salvation and that issue can not be made right until a syllabus addresses and condemns modern liberal infiltration and destruction of our faith.

JMJ,

George Brenner