Thursday, July 2, 2015

We do not know of a BOB and BOD exception in the present times. Here we can all agree since it is common knowledge.

Anonymous

George Brenner said:


IAAD said:
"What you don't (won't ?) understand is that BOB or BOD without BOW is not an exception to EENS
"

This is an absolutely 100% correct statement. What almost all have done within the Catholic Church is to extrapolate that a person can be saved outside the Catholic Church and there is no longer the need to remain, convert or return to the Catholic Church in order to be saved. We have reduced, No Salvation Outside the Catholic Church to a meaningless formula. Even if a person might be saved by BOB or BOD even they must be taught that there is No Salvation outside the Catholic Church. period!

Lionel:
This is an absolutely 100% correct statement.
Yes but he is coming to this conclusion by assuming that BOD and BOB cases are known in the present times.
This is false.
He has some theoretical constuct,which makes him imagine that BOD and BOB are not exceptions to EENS and at the same time he says there is known salvation outside the Church. So St. Emerentiana was saved without the baptism of water and with BOB but she is not an exception! And yes he holds traditional EENS and also the possibility of St.E. being saved without baptism of water.
This is double speak.
It is common among the traditionalists like the SSPX,too.

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What almost all have done within the Catholic Church is to extrapolate that a person can be saved outside the Catholic Church and there is no longer the need to remain, convert or return to the Catholic Church in order to be saved.
Lionel:
Yes this is the error being made by him and other sedevacantists.They want to have it both ways but with irrationality.

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We have reduced, No Salvation Outside the Catholic Church to a meaningless formula.
Lionel:
Yes it is like this for them. It is also magisterial after 1949. So we cannot really blame these lay people. They are innocent in a way.

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Even if a person might be saved by BOB or BOD even they must be taught that there is No Salvation outside the Catholic Church. period!
Lionel:
Yes.
And that we do not know of a BOB and BOD exception in the present times. Here we can all agree since it is common knowledge.
-Lionel Andrades

9 comments:

George Brenner said...

I will wait until IIAD responds hopefully to this post and let him clarify his beliefs and position. Having said that it is true almost all clerics act and suggest that a person could choose to be saved by BOB or BOD. In actuality BOB and/or BOD might choose them due to unforeseen circumstances in their lives.. They can not choose these possible means of salvation but can be saved if God so judges them worthy based on their sanctity because of these situations. The catechumen who dies before being baptized or the martyr who dies before being formally incorporated into the Catholic Church are both examples of circumstances denying intent of mind, body and soul which present themselves to God. Shame on all those in the Church who have used these beautiful and Holy possibilities of sanctity before God in opening the floodgates to undermine Jesus intent in starting the Catholic Church and it's necessity for salvation. And of course we cannot predict. encourage. presume these conditions exist in the present as if we could see a someone wearing a shirt saying " I am going to be saved by Baptism of Desire". What spiritual nonsense yet that is where we are at. Is it any wander that morals are in a sodom and gemmorah spiral downward. Wake up Catholic Church!

In Christ,

George Brenner

Catholic Mission said...

IAAD has commented on Twitter.
His position on Vatican Council II is the same as the MICM(St.Bendict Centers,communities of Fr.Leonard Feeney in the USA).
The MICM also say there are no exceptions to extra ecclesiam nulla salus.They mean this by way of theology.
Since they also believe that Lumen Gentium 16 ( invincible ignorance ) is an exception to EENS. So they criticize Vatican Council II.
MICM is not saying that these cases are not known to us in the present times and so they are not exceptions to EENs.
In a recent interveiw Brothe Andre Marie MICM could not say that Vatican Council II is Feeneyite. Instead he sees it as ambigous. This is because he uses Marchettis' irrational inference in the interpretation of the Council.
Hypotehtical cases are defacto excceptions to the dogma for him.So LG 8,UR 3 etc contradict EENS for him. They are exceptions.

George Brenner said...

That is why we desperately need a syllabus as some Cardinals and Bishops have called for to clear up the confusion and misunderstandings of VCII. It will not go away without a syllabus to clarify NSOCC and many other issues.

In Christ,

George Brenner

Catholic Mission said...

The Cardinals and Bishops like IAAD and the St.Benedict Center are assuming hypothetical cases are defacto exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus in the present times.For them LG 16 is an exception to EENS. This is a mistake being made by the SSPX, Bishop Athansius Schneider, the sedevacantists CMRI and MHFM and the Vatican Curia including the popes.
It is with this error that Vatican Council II contradicts the original Syllabus of Errors of Pope Piux IX.
So if we identify and correct this error things will fall into place.
So many times I have asked Brother Andre Marie MICM if LG 16 is an exception to EENS according to Fr. Leonard Feeney. He will not answer. I asked him two questions he discussed it with the others but did not send me the answer even after I reminded him about it.May be there is some problem there. I am not forcing him.
I have quoted Archbishop Thomas E. Gullickson, Fr. S. Visintin, Dean of Theology at the Benedictine St. Anslem's University in Rome and John Martignoni the American apologist saying there are no known exception to EENS in the present times.There is no comment from the MICM centers.
When Bishop Schneider says a Syllabus of Errors on VC2 is needed it is presumed that he knows the cause of the all the confusion in VC2.He does not! He too is using liberal theology with the Marchetti error as Pope Francis, Pope Benedict XVI and Cardinal Kaspar.

George Brenner said...

We can not assume that Bishop Schneider knows all the causes or each and every specific confusion, error and wrong catechesis that has been caused by rampant liberal individualism on contradicting many issues of deviating from sound catechesis. I salute him for suggesting that this mass confusion must be addressed by the Pontiff in conjunction with those orthodox wise clerics who would identify the issues to remedy. Of course this must be done with the help and guidance of the Holy Ghost. That is why I believe a world wide petition for a syllabus is a must. This will not be solved by a blog site. It runs too deep and has endured for too many decades.

In Christ,

George Brenner

Catholic Mission said...


We can not assume that Bishop Schneider knows all the causes
Lionel:
Who does to issue a Syllabus?
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or each and every specific confusion, error and wrong catechesis that has been caused by rampant liberal individualism on contradicting many issues of deviating from sound catechesis. I salute him for suggesting that this mass confusion must be addressed by the Pontiff in conjunction with those orthodox wise clerics who would identify the issues to remedy.
Lionel:
Pope Francis or Pope Benedict both who support Marchettiism and reject Feeneyism and interpret Vatican Council II with Marchetti's irrational inference, in which LG 16 is an explicit exception to EENS?
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Of course this must be done with the help and guidance of the Holy Ghost.
Lionel:
Is the Holy Spirit guiding the Church to accept irrational Marchettiism today?
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That is why I believe a world wide petition for a syllabus is a must.
Lionel:
Assuming Pope Francis approves of it. He will issue a Syllabus in which we continue to intepret Vatican Council II in which LG 16 is an exception to EENS ?
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This will not be solved by a blog site. It runs too deep and has endured for too many decades.
Lionel:
One blog site has identified the interpretation of Vatican Council II with Marchettiism and presented Feeneyism ( no visible exceptions to EENS in the present times) as an alternative.
Do you think that Pope Francis and the Jewish left will approve it ?
Not likely.
Can Church Militant.com for example say that Pope Pius XII made an objective mistake and Fr.Leonard Feeney was correct according to Tradition. The magisterium made a factual error in 1949 ? Not likely.
Could the MICM communities say that their bishops are wrong?...
-Lionel Andrades

George Brenner said...

The simple answer is when you look at any of the Syllabus of Errors that have been issued over the centuries, they were done to correct wrong, commonly held or heretical teaching versus sound Catholic doctrine. Because unlike decades ago Catholics do NOT know the correct stand and answers on many of the teachings that are correct catechesis of articles of faith such as NSOCC, homosexuality, the trinity, purgatory, the existence of hell etc etc, a syllabus is the answer. Of course it is very unlikely that Pope Francis would initiate a syllabus and that is why many Catholics must petition and request the undertaking. Either a Pope WILL do a syllabus to correct many of the issues you discuss, Lionel or the second coming of Jesus will.

In Christ,
George Brenner

George Brenner said...

All of the syllabus of Errors that I have read throughout Church history have been perfectly correct. When a syllabus is pronounced I believe that the Holy Ghost protects its very content.


JMJ,

George Brenner

Catholic Mission said...

George If there is confusion in the Catechism of the Catholic Church it will show up in a Syllabus. The Catechism was the place where the correction should have been made.