Saturday, August 8, 2015

So if a pope or any one makes the connection, does not compartmentalise BOD and I.I it is irrational

All those who are saved certainly do NOT need to be a card carrying member !!!!!!!
Lionel:
Who are all these persons? We do not know them in the present times.They are not known cases.Why do you mention them with reference to EENS i.e all needing to be card carrying members of the Church.
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  But all need to be taught that they do need to be a card carrying member of the Catholic Church. There is a difference!
Lionel:
Yes all need to be card carrying members but what has this to do with speculative cases.
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This is where you get it wrong, Lionel

Lumen Gentium, 14).:

(4)" However, God’s grace does work outside of the sacraments in many cases.

Lionel:
So what has this to do with EENS in the present times? In the present times all need to be card carrying members of the Church.
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For Catholic Christians this can occur when they are deprived of the sacraments through no fault of their own, or when they pray for grace outside the sacraments, even while also regularly receiving them.
Lionel:
And we do not know of any such case.
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Likewise, a catechumen who dies without baptism can be saved from the “desire for baptism.”
Lionel:
Invisible case. Accepted in principle. But no connection could be made with EENS. It has nothing to do with EENS.
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 Outside the Catholic Church, those who are in invincible ignorance regarding the nature of the Church and the sacraments can still receive the offer of salvation.
Lionel:
In 2015 we do not know any such case?
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 This was an explicit teaching of Pope Pius IX in the 19th century, and it has clear precedents in the teaching of 13th century scholastic theologians like Aquinas."
Lionel.
Immagine correlata
If he made a connection, a link it was irrational. Baptism of desire and being saved in invincible ignorance is O.K.But if it is assumed that these cases are linked to EENS it is irrational. These cases would have to be known, explicit and visible to be exceptions to EENS. They are not known to us humans.
So if a pope or any one makes the connection, does not compartmentalise BOD and I.I it is irrational.
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Lumen Gentium 15-16 presents this idea in a complex and nuanced way. (We find complementary teachings in Unitatis Redintegratio and Nostra Aetate.)

Lionel:

Only if you mix up what is invisible as being visible, what is known only to God as also being known to us and then infer that these known cases are exceptions to all needing faith and baptism.
-Lionel Andrades

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