Thursday, October 8, 2015

Sedevacantist community in Florida still remaing in hiding like diocesan priests in Rome and do not answer questions on the Faith


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Comments from the blog post For Bishop Sanborn, Fr. Anthony Cekada, Fr. Deposito and the other priests and seminarians at the sedevacantist seminary in Florida, there are exceptions to the dogma EENS : so they can see the dead now in Heaven! http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2015/10/for-bishop-sanborn-fr-anthony-cekada-fr.html
Lionel:
IAAD still does not answer, he does not comment on the following points.
1.Baptism of desire (BOD) is not relevant to EENS.So why does Fr. Anthony Cekada say the Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary religious, at the St. Benedict Centers USA, are in mortal sin for not accepting BOD with reference to EENS.
2.The SBC say they accept BOD and it will be followed with the baptism of water.These are hypothetical cases. Why does Fr. Cekaga consider hypothetical cases as being exceptions or relevant to the dogma EENS?
3.So why does the professor at the sedevacantist seminary make this claim that they are in in mortal sin? Is he not wrong?
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So LG 16 is also not an exception to EENS for you?
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 Lionel:
IAAD still will not affirm that there are no known exceptions mentioned in Vatican Council II to the dogma EENS and in general there are no exceptions to the dogma.
Cushingism says there are exceptions to EENS and Feeneyism says there are no exceptions.
IAAD will not say that he is a Feeneyite and not a Cushingite like Bishop Sanborn and Fr. Cekada.
He still does not comment on this.


Introibo Ad Altare Dei:
1. We can't see the dead. Period.
Lionel:
Yes that makes sense. So since we cannot see or know the dead- saved in BOD,BOB or I.I and allegedly without the baptism of water,these cases are not relevant or exceptions to the Feeneyite version of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus(EENS). Agreed? This is Feeneyism.You accept this? Are you breaking ranks with Bishop Sanborn and Fr. Cekada?
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Lionel :

IAAD does not comment on this too: Is LG 8 (subsist it ) an exception to the dogma? Why is it mentioned on the sedevacantist website?
For me LG 8 like LG 16 is not an exception to EENS. The sedevacantists hold the liberal position on this issue and they do not want to change.
Like priests in the main line churches in Rome, the sedevancantist priests do not want to comment upon this issue.



Lionel:
The subsist it confusion is based on B being an exception to A http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2015/07/subsist-it-confusion-based-on-b-is.html

'Subsistit it'(LG 8) is not a VISIBLE exception to extra ecclesiam nulla salus. http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2014/06/subsistit-itlg-8-is-not-visible.html
-Lionel Andrades

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4 comments:

Introibo Ad Altare Dei said...

Here are your points answered:

1. The entire issue has nothing to do with EENS and everything to do with HOW membership in the Church is obtained. You can receive BOW OR BOB (without BOW) OR BOD (without BOW). The Feeneyites will admit ONLY BOW (or they fancy BOW must follow BOB or BOD; which is not true because BOB and BOD are sufficient in and of themselves). BOB and BOD have been taught by the Church since the beginning. To deny them as sufficient for Church membership is a mortal sin against the Faith. It is heresy. See http://www.romancatholicism.org/bod-quotes.html

2. You are obsess with "exceptions." You don't understand the problem which is why you can't comprehend the answer. To deny BOD as sufficient in and of itself is heretical. If someone said hypothetically, "Christ could commit sin" it is not an exception to his sinlessness since we can't see Him commit sin nor do we know of any sin He committed. We can't see Him in Heaven.WRONG! It is heresy because it says IT IS POSSIBLE. The hypothesis alone is enough to bring the censure of heresy. Christ, Who is God, cannot commit sin, and whether there are actual cases or not, does not matter. Likewise, to deny the efficacy of BOD without BOW is heresy even if only hypothetical. It doesn't matter that we can't see the dead, etc. The hypothesis alone is enough to be guilty of heresy.

3. They are in mortal sin. He is not wrong. LG 16 is an heretical hypothesis as explained above.

Catholic Mission said...

Here are your points answered:

1. The entire issue has nothing to do with EENS and everything to do with HOW membership in the Church is obtained. You can receive BOW OR BOB (without BOW) OR BOD (without BOW).
Lionel:
So are you saying that BOD with ot without the baptism of water is invisible for us and so is not an exception to the dogma EENS? Is Bishop Sanborn and Fr. Cekada actually saying this ?
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The Feeneyites will admit ONLY BOW (or they fancy BOW must follow BOB or BOD; which is not true because BOB and BOD are sufficient in and of themselves).
Lionel:
It is a dogma of the church that all need the baoptism of water for salvation.
It is not a dogma of the Church that BOD is sufficient and must exclude the baptism of water.
Anyway these cases are hypothetical.You and Bishop Sanborn do not know of any specific case. So how can you assume in principle that there are persons saved as such or going to be saved as such when you do not know and cannot know of any specific case?. How can you make a theoretical rule when no one in Church in history could know of any case?
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BOB and BOD have been taught by the Church since the beginning.
Lionel: I repeat BOB and BOD is not an issue. But at issue is whether these cases are invisible or visible. You provided a whole list of BOD cases and I mentioned that not a single one states that they are explicit and so an exception to the dogma.So Fr.Cekada cannot cite them as a reference. They are not exceptions or relevant to the Feeeneyite version of EENS.
Not a single of the BOD references cited claim that BOD is explicit,objective and visible to us humans. Yet this is what is implied by Fr. Cekada in his article.He has done all his research on this subject assuming BOD is explicit. Then he condemns the Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary for not accepting explicit BOD as an excedption to the dogma. He even ludicrously calls it a mortal sin.
So I have to keep asking you again and again is BOD explicit or implicit, visible or invisible and not one of you from the community at Florida will respond.
You still have not answered is LG 16 explicit or implicit ?
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To deny them as sufficient for Church membership is a mortal sin against the Faith. It is heresy.
Lionel:
BOD and BOB does not have to be denied since for me they are always invisible and theoretical they are not exceptions to the dogma EENS. They are irrelevant to the dogma.
However it is heresy to say that they are explicit and then imply that they are exceptions to EENS and to the Nicene Creed which says I believe in one baptism for the forgivessness of sin and not three known baptisms.
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See http://www.romancatholicism.org/bod-quotes.html

CONTINUED

Catholic Mission said...

CONTINUED

2. You are obsess with "exceptions."
Lionel:
When Fr. Cekada says the community of Fr. Leonard Feeney must accept BOD without the baptism of water he is referring to an exception.So I have to respond.
He implies that there is a known case of someone saved with the baptism of desire in the present times ( 2015). It would have to be in the present times to be relevent to EENS. Then he assumes that this 'explicit' case is there in Heaven without the baptism of water. So he wants the Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary to accept this fantasy. His reasoning is based on an irrational premise and inference.
You support all this !
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You don't understand the problem which is why you can't comprehend the answer. To deny BOD as sufficient in and of itself is heretical.
Lionel.
When you refer to BOD specify if it is expliict BOD or implicit BOD you are referring to.
To suggest BOD is explicit is nonsense. Common sense tells us BOD cases are in Heaven and so they cannot be explicit on earth.
Numerous times I have mentioned this point but you have not answered it. This is a common sense question.Can you see the dead-saved now in Heaven with BOD? Is LG 16 an exception to EENS?
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If someone said hypothetically, "Christ could commit sin" it is not an exception to his sinlessness since we can't see Him commit sin nor do we know of any sin He committed. We can't see Him in Heaven.WRONG! It is heresy because it says IT IS POSSIBLE. The hypothesis alone is enough to bring the censure of heresy. Christ, Who is God, cannot commit sin, and whether there are actual cases or not, does not matter.
Lionel:
No one is making this claim
However Fr. Cekada says it is a mortal sin for the Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary since they do not accept visible in the flesh for us BOD. Does this make sense ?
What if the Sisters said that they accept implicit for us and explicit for God only BOD. What would be his reaction? Would he say, "No! You must accept visible for us BOD otherwise I do not have any case against you".
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Likewise, to deny the efficacy of BOD without BOW is heresy even if only hypothetical.
Lionel:
The dogmatic teaching on EENS is de fide.It says all need the baptism of water for salvation. This is not my opinion.
If you claim BOD excludes the baptism of water you are denying the dogma like the liberals. This is heretical for me.It would also be your opinion.

The second important point is, even if it was you opinion, either way, with or without the baptism of water, you are referring to an invisible, noN existing case out of our reality.
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It doesn't matter that we can't see the dead, etc.
Lionel.
It matters when Fr. Cekada assumes BOD is visible, and Bishop Sanborm assumes LG 16 and LG 8 cases refer to explicit people, known people. Since if these cases were not explicit Vatican Council II for them would not be an exception to the old ecclesiology based on EENS.
But it is an exception. So it matters when they infer that they can see the dead.

Catholic Mission said...


3. They are in mortal sin. He is not wrong. LG 16 is an heretical hypothesis as explained above.
Lionel:
Is LG 16 ( invincible ignorance)a heretical hypothesis when it is explicit or implicit?
Why cannot Fr. Cekada answer this?
For me LG 16 refers to an invisible case and so is not an explicit exception to EENS. It is an not an exception to the old ecclesiology based on EENS.So Vatican Council II does not contradict the old ecclesiology. Since there cannot be an explicit exception( LG 16, LG 8 etc).
For Fr. Cekada and the Florida seminary LG 16 and LG 8 refer to explicit cases and so VC2 becomes a break with the old ecclesiology. They condemn VC2 when the fault lies with them not making the correct explicit-implicit distinction.
Like Bishop Sanborn and Fr. Cekada's formation under Archbishop Lefebvre, all three of them innocently have used an irrationality to interpret VC2. So the result is heretical and so they reject VC2.
Archbishop Lefebvre was correct that VC2 was heretical but he did not know that it was because of the invisible-visible distinction. This was not known to the Magisterium too. So they did not help him. Instead they wrongly excommunicated him.
In his mind Vatican Council II was heretical and he was correct.It was heretical with explicit LG 16, LG 8 instead of implicit LG 16 and LG 8.

Bp. Sanborn and Fr. Cekada have been informed. They are not in ignorance.Why must they make the same error as Archbishop Lefebvre and Cardinal Ratzinger?