Comment on the blog Vox Cantoris
You notice we agree that Vatican Council II says all Muslims and other non Catholics need 'faith and baptism' for salvation. So Vatican Council II holds the rigorist interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus (EENS).
But if you repeat this soon a good Catholic will tell you that you are wrong. Since being saved in invincible ignorance (LG 16), the baptism of desire/implicit desire(LG 14) and the baptism of blood(BOD) are exceptions to the passages quoted above i.e EENS and Vatican Council II (AG 7, LG 14).
So I asked you if LG 16 can really be an exception to the two passages cited above?
To get through all these objections that are often raised we have to make the distinction betwen what is visible and invisible. We define our terms.
HYPOTHETICAL CASE
1. LG 16 can refer to a person, a hypothetical case , a person who is not visible to us in real life. We personally do not know of any one saved in invincible ignorance or the baptism of desire or blood and who is there in Heaven without the baptism of water.
NON HYPOTHETICAL CASE
2.However if you, Vox say that Lumen Gentium 16(LG 16) is an exception to the dogma EENS and to AG 7, LG 14 ( quoted above) then you are saying there is someone who is saved without the baptism of water in the Catholic Church.
This person to be an exception to all needing faith and baptism ; this person to be an exception to all needing tormally enter the Church for salvation (EENS) ; this person to be an example of salvation outside the Church MUST EXIST, MUST BE VISIBLE AND KNOWN IN OUR REALITY.If he does not exist he is not an exception.Zero cases in our reality cannot be an exception to all needing 'faith and baptism' for salvation in 2015.
So since for you Vox and so many other Catholics who say LG 16 is an exception to EENS or Vatican Council II (AG 7, LG 14) , these persons are personally known to you.They exist in Heaven and are visible on earth for you,otherwise how could they be exceptions to all needing the baptism of water in the Catholic Church to avoid Hell.
This is the irrational reasoning being used by you, George Brenner and Catholics in general.
NO EXCEPTIONS FOR ME
For me Lionel, there are no explicit cases of being saved in invincible ignorance, BOD or BOB (without or with the baptism of water).So there are no exceptions in Vatican Council II to the strict interpretation of the dogma EENS. Vatican Council II is affirming the traditional teaching on other religions. It is saying all Muslims with no known exceptions in 2015 need 'faith and baptism'(AG 7, LG 14); they need to formally concert into the Church (EENS), to go to Heaven and avoid the fires of Hell.
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CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH AND EENS
So it is important to note that when the Catechism of the Catholic Church 1257 says God is not limited to the Sacraments, it is referring to a hypothetical case.It is not relevant or an exception to the two passages above(EENS/ AG7,LG 14).
When the Catechism of the Catholic Church 846 says all who are saved are saved through Jesus and the Church, it is also mentioning BOD, BOB and I.I which we know are not objective in our reality and so are not exceptions or relevant to EENS. They are not exceptions to the traditional teaching on other relgions.They do not contradict the dogma EENS according to Fr. Leonard Feeney.
SYLLABUS OF ERRORS
So can you intepret magisterial documents using Feeneyism ( there are no exceptions to the dogma EENS) or Cushingism ( there are known exceptions to the dogma EENS, they include BOD, BOB and I.I).
So can you intepret magisterial documents using Feeneyism ( there are no exceptions to the dogma EENS) or Cushingism ( there are known exceptions to the dogma EENS, they include BOD, BOB and I.I).
If you interpret Vatican Council II with Feeneyism would you still need a Syllabus of Errors on 1) other religions and salvation and 2) ecumenism?
-Lionel Andrades
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