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St. Thomas held the Catholic version of BOD and BOB. He died well before the excommunicated Fr. Feeney!
- Lionel: St. Thomas did not consider the baptism of desire as being explicit and so an exception to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. Also Fr. Leonard Feeney did not consider the baptism of desire etc as being explicit and an exception to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.St. Thomas Aquinas acknowdledged the possibility, the theoretical possibility of the baptism of desire which would be followed in general with the baptism of water.Fr. Leonard Feeney also acknowledged, theoretically, the existence of the baptism of desire and for him it would be followed with the baptism of water.Feeneyism was the official teaching of the Catholic Church for centuries. It was Feeneyism that St. Thomas Aquinas affirmed when he said all need the baptism of water for salvation.
- Your citations are cherry-picked by the Vatican II sect Feeneyites, "Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary."
- Lionel: They are citations of the saints on extra ecclesiam nulla salus and the necessity of the baptism of water for all. You do not deny this.These are examples of the official teachings of the Catholic Church over centuries.This is Feeneyism over the centuries and which was rejected in 1949 with Cushingism, which says there are exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. In other words there are explicit cases on earth of people who are in Heaven and are seen and known not to have 'faith and baptism'(AG 7).Cushingism is irrational and non traditional.
- Notice what I said many times before: Popes, Saints and theologians teach BOTH the absolute necessity of water baptism AND Baptism by Desire!!
- Lionel: They mention both.However it has to be inferred by the reader, if he wants to, that the baptism of desire is explicit and so is an exception to the necessity of water baptism for all.The inference is the error.
- Aquinas wrote, Secondly, the sacrament of Baptism may be wanting to anyone in reality but not in desire: for instance, when a man wishes to be baptized, but by some ill-chance he is forestalled by death before receiving Baptism.
- Lionel: O.K say there is such a case theoretically, it would be unknown to you and me today. This case would only be known to God. So if there is no such explicit case today it cannot be an exception to the centuries old interpretation of the dogma.If it is a theoretical case it is irrelevant to the dogma.S. Thomas would not know of any such case in his real life. Nor would he know of someone in the past, saved as such.
- And such a man can obtain salvation without being actually baptized, on account of his desire for Baptism, which desire is the outcome of "faith that worketh by charity," whereby God, Whose power is not tied to visible sacraments, sanctifies man inwardly.
- Lionel:He is referring to a hypothetical case for him and us.The baptism of desire is always invisible for us. This is a fact of life.It is not my personal theory.
- This is a direct quote from the Summa Theologica as well!! Was Aquinas schizophrenic? No, he was distinguishing the ORDINARY means and the EXTRAORDINARY means. There's the text!
- Lionel: That is the text and it does not say that the baptism of desire case is explicit or an exception to the dogma.Since you infer that these cases are visible and known to us, you assume that this is the extra ordinary way.There cannot be an extraordinary way if we do not know of any case.If there is an extraordinary way it would be extraordinary only for Jesus.Only God would know if there is an exception.For us the ordinary way of salvation is faith and baptism and there are no extraordinary cases, no exceptions.
- http://introiboadaltaredei2.blogspot.it/2015/10/beware-bizarre.html#comment-form
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Tuesday, November 3, 2015
St. Thomas Aquinas held the Feeneyite version of extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
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Saint Thomas Aquinas (died A.D. 1274):
“There is no entering into salvation outside the Church, just as in the time of the deluge there was none outside the ark, which denotes the Church.” (Summa Theologiae )http://catholicism.org/eens-popes.htmlhttps://www.olrl.org/doctrine/eens2.shtml
The Extra ordinary and Ordinary magisterium did not mention any exceptions to EENS:
http://catholicism.org/eens-fathers.html
Your quote on St. Thomas Aquinas above only refers to implicit desire for the baptism of water/ baptism of desire. We agree it is theoretical.
St. Thomas Aquinas does not say in your quote above that these cases are explicit.
He does not say in your quote that these cases are exceptions to the dogma.
You make the inference.
You assume the baptism of desire is explicit and an exception to the dogma and then pin it on St. Thomas Aquinas.This is what the liberal theologians also do.
So where is the text?