Joseph Shaw is finding it difficult to theologically discuss any of the points I raised in the previous blog posts 1. He is removing comments and has blocked me on Twitter.
Here is an article I have stumbled upon on his blog.I appreciate the work of the Latin Mass Society and I wish them well. I think they are fortunate to have Joseph Shaw with them.
September 15, 2013
What does the Latin Mass Society do? 3: Research and Campaigning
In my last two posts, I discussed the devotional activities the Latin Mass Society organises, and our training and educational initiatives. These represent a whirlwind of events: there is always something happening, or about to happen, over and above the more routine matter of supporting the celebration of the Traditional Mass week by week in parishes, which is of course a ball we can never allow to drop.
Lionel :
The programs are impressive. If I was there I too would have
participated in them.
participated in them.
But there is another aspect of our work which is also necessary: research and campaigning. The liturgical restoration will not take place without the right side winning a number of arguments, and not without drawing facts and arguments, including the facts of the Church's law, to the attention of the Catholic public and, on occasion, of the hierarchy.
Lionel:
Agreed !
If you like what we do, then show your support bybecoming a members of the LMS.
If seminarians are all taught and accept that Latin is a barrier to participation in the liturgy, that the priest celebrating with his 'back to the people' symbolises contempt for them, and that Chant should be rejected because it is too difficult for congregational singing, things are, quite simply, never going to improve.
Lionel:
One of the reasons the liberals also do not like the
Latin Mass is because it reminds them of the old
ecclesiology, the Fr. Leonard Feeney's extra
ecclesiam nulla salus (EENS). EENS is prohibited
by the Jewish Left. It is a stumbling block
in their creation of a one world religion, in
which all Christian communities will be equal
and there will be false worship of Jesus
in a false church.
Latin Mass is because it reminds them of the old
ecclesiology, the Fr. Leonard Feeney's extra
ecclesiam nulla salus (EENS). EENS is prohibited
by the Jewish Left. It is a stumbling block
in their creation of a one world religion, in
which all Christian communities will be equal
and there will be false worship of Jesus
in a false church.
In point of fact seminarians are today increasingly not being taught these old orthodoxies, and they are increasingly rejecting them, because the liberals have lost the argument on these issues.
Lionel:
The 'old orthodoxies' have also been theologically
removed with Cushingism. There is the new
theology based on their being explicit
exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla
salus(EENS).
removed with Cushingism. There is the new
theology based on their being explicit
exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla
salus(EENS).
Even the Latin Mass Society while liturgically
and devotionally is orthodox, theologically they
are very liberal.
and devotionally is orthodox, theologically they
are very liberal.
The work of Pope Benedict, as a private theologian as well as his teaching as Pope, and that of a large number of young scholars, have made the old arguments untenable.
Lionel:
I have shown in the previous two blog posts that Pope Benedict
was using Cushingism as a theology.He rejected Feeneyism
which was the theology of the Church for centuries.St.Ignatius
of Loyola and St. Francis Xavier for instance were Feeneyites.
They affirmed the strict interpretation of the dogma EENS.
This was rejected by the Jesuits after 1949 with the approval
of Rome (Holy Office).
was using Cushingism as a theology.He rejected Feeneyism
which was the theology of the Church for centuries.St.Ignatius
of Loyola and St. Francis Xavier for instance were Feeneyites.
They affirmed the strict interpretation of the dogma EENS.
This was rejected by the Jesuits after 1949 with the approval
of Rome (Holy Office).
The old Jesuit missionaries knew that all the pagans were on
the way to Hell. All.Cushingism says not all, but only those
who know about Jesus and the Church and do not enter.
This new doctrine based on an irrationality was approved
by Pope Pius XII in 1949. For St. Francis Xavier all the
natives in Goa, India, for example, needed to convert
to avoid Hell. Cushingism says not all, since there could be
known cases of the baptism of desire or pagans living in invincible
ignorance.So now the Jesuits say that the natives in Goa
were saved or would be saved even if Xavier did not go
there, since they were in invincible ignorance.
the way to Hell. All.Cushingism says not all, but only those
who know about Jesus and the Church and do not enter.
This new doctrine based on an irrationality was approved
by Pope Pius XII in 1949. For St. Francis Xavier all the
natives in Goa, India, for example, needed to convert
to avoid Hell. Cushingism says not all, since there could be
known cases of the baptism of desire or pagans living in invincible
ignorance.So now the Jesuits say that the natives in Goa
were saved or would be saved even if Xavier did not go
there, since they were in invincible ignorance.
The Latin Mass societies, though they have the Mass of St.
Francis Xavier, have the theology of Cardinal Richard
Cushing and the Jesuits in Boston in 1949.
Francis Xavier, have the theology of Cardinal Richard
Cushing and the Jesuits in Boston in 1949.
The old orthodoxies retain their grip on those who have not caught up with the latest thinking, however, and continue to damage the prospects of restoration.
Lionel:
The 'latest thinking' is Cushingism. It is the new theology
which has come into the Church since the pontificate of
Pope Pius XII.Prof. Joseph Shaw teaches it at Oxford
University.If he interpreted Vatican Council II with
Feeneyism (LG 16 etc are not exceptions to EENS), he would
be banned by the liberal university. Cardinal Vincent Nichols
at Westminister would asked Joseph Shaw to disassociate himself
from the Latin Mass Society.
which has come into the Church since the pontificate of
Pope Pius XII.Prof. Joseph Shaw teaches it at Oxford
University.If he interpreted Vatican Council II with
Feeneyism (LG 16 etc are not exceptions to EENS), he would
be banned by the liberal university. Cardinal Vincent Nichols
at Westminister would asked Joseph Shaw to disassociate himself
from the Latin Mass Society.
When a priest suggests celebrating ad orientem, for example, he is likely to be met with opposition from the Faithful based on just those old arguments. Those ideas need to be exposed, held up to the light, and refuted, again and again and again, until the message gets through.
This needs to be done not with angry polemic, nor with sloppy arguments from dodgy websites, but with charity, care, and scholarship. This is the thinking behind a major project of the International Federation Una Voce which has been taking up a great deal of my time over the last 18 months, as the official coordinator: the Position Papers. We now have 16 published, and I will soon be making public numbers 17 and 18. They are highly compressed, heavily footnoted, executive summaries of the arguments needed by those engaged in any kind of serious debate. No one on the internet can any more have any excuse to wheel out the old liberal canards, the discredited scholarship of 60 years ago which once seemed so daring and so unanswerable.
That, of course, is exactly what people in the Catholic press like Mgr Basil Loftus do: week after week, he recycles his old notes from 1963 as if he were delivering to his readers the latest research. There must be someone equally relentless to show it up for the nonsense it is. Because most Catholics are not liturgical scholars, and if they hear it from a Monsignor with a big column in a Catholic newspaper, they will give it the benefit of the doubt.
 |
| Nearly 14,500 adult conversions in 1960. It's about of third of that now. |
This needs to be done not with angry polemic, nor with sloppy arguments from dodgy websites, but with charity, care, and scholarship. This is the thinking behind a major project of the International Federation Una Voce which has been taking up a great deal of my time over the last 18 months, as the official coordinator: the Position Papers. We now have 16 published, and I will soon be making public numbers 17 and 18. They are highly compressed, heavily footnoted, executive summaries of the arguments needed by those engaged in any kind of serious debate. No one on the internet can any more have any excuse to wheel out the old liberal canards, the discredited scholarship of 60 years ago which once seemed so daring and so unanswerable.
That, of course, is exactly what people in the Catholic press like Mgr Basil Loftus do: week after week, he recycles his old notes from 1963 as if he were delivering to his readers the latest research. There must be someone equally relentless to show it up for the nonsense it is. Because most Catholics are not liturgical scholars, and if they hear it from a Monsignor with a big column in a Catholic newspaper, they will give it the benefit of the doubt.
Lionel:
They have to be shown how Mgr Loftus is using Cushingism
as a theology in his understanding of Vatican Council II, the
Catechism of the Catholic Church and the Council of
Trent.Without the irrationality of Cushingism he would
be forced to be traditional and Feeneyite.
as a theology in his understanding of Vatican Council II, the
Catechism of the Catholic Church and the Council of
Trent.Without the irrationality of Cushingism he would
be forced to be traditional and Feeneyite.
 |
| Bishop McMahon at the LMS Priest Training Conference in Leicester |
So this blog itself has some role to play. But to take the battle, not so much to the enemy as to the unconverted, I and other Latin Mass Society people regularly get letters and articles, as well as news reports, into the press. If we didn't exist, if we weren't supported by our network, if we didn't have expertise to call on and volunteers to help with research, and if we weren't given some standing by the fact of our representing a large organisation, this would be impossible, and the traditional and conservative point of view would be vastly less well represented and less well argued in the UK.
Lionel:
True.
However the issue of Cushingism as a theology, which is
irrational, popular, heretical, based on a fantasy-but
magisterial needs to be discussed.
irrational, popular, heretical, based on a fantasy-but
magisterial needs to be discussed.
In the year or so after the Motu Proprio, letters to the Catholic Herald pointing out the bleedin' obvious seemed to be necessary practically every week. It has been quieter since then. In the last twelve months I've had only five letters published in the Catholic Herald, and a feature article; I've had two letters each in the Universe, the Catholic Times, and the Tablet, and done a guest post on the Tablet blog. I have spoken to four different sets of journalists on various stories, and contributed a short story to Oremus, the Westminster Cathedral magazine, and pieces for Te Deum Laudamus, andThe Latin Mass Magazine. I have also been interviewed for the on-line Regina Magazineand (bizarrely) a Polish radio station.
Lionel:
But it is a projection of the Latin Mass with the new
ecclesiology and a rejection of the old ecclesiology,
with which this Mass is associated.
ecclesiology and a rejection of the old ecclesiology,
with which this Mass is associated.
 |
| Bishop Mark Davis at the LMS Walsingham Pilgrimage in 2012 |
To repeat: it is the Latin Mass Society which makes this possible. A good illustration is the research we did on the number of ordinations over the decades. Having seen some dubious claims being made in public, we are able to put a team of volunteers (including me) into one of the very few places in the country with the entire set of Catholic Directories, and get the necessary research done in a couple of weeks. The work we did took many, many man-hours, a bit of money, some good friends and some zealous supporters. The Latin Mass Society had the will and the means to do it: if we hadn't it wouldn't have happened. And the idea that more priests were ordained this year than in the 1950s would probably still be out there in public.
A different kind of campaigning goes on behind closed doors. We enjoy good relations with the hierarchy, at the human level, and we always have, despite our disagreements.
Lionel:
The hierarchy in England and Wales interprets Vatican
Council II with Cushingism. The priest has to use an
irrationality( the dead-saved in Heaven are visible on earth
and they are saved without the baptism of water in the
Catholic Church). The priest then has to infer that this ghost
which he allegedly sees is an exception to the old ecclesiology
associated with the Traditional Latin Mass. It is only then
that the bishops will allow him to offer the old Mass.
Council II with Cushingism. The priest has to use an
irrationality( the dead-saved in Heaven are visible on earth
and they are saved without the baptism of water in the
Catholic Church). The priest then has to infer that this ghost
which he allegedly sees is an exception to the old ecclesiology
associated with the Traditional Latin Mass. It is only then
that the bishops will allow him to offer the old Mass.
Similarly the hierarchy will only permit Joseph Shaw and
Thomas Pink to teach theology as Catholics if they affirm
Cushingism ( there are exceptions to the dogma EENS) and
reject Feeneyism ( there are no known exceptions to the
dogma EENS).
Thomas Pink to teach theology as Catholics if they affirm
Cushingism ( there are exceptions to the dogma EENS) and
reject Feeneyism ( there are no known exceptions to the
dogma EENS).
If you ask any one in England, 'Where are these exceptions?',
'Who are they?','Where do they live?' the answer will
draw a blank. Yet every member of the Latin Mass Society has to
say there are exceptions to the dogma EENS, to remain in good
standing.
'Who are they?','Where do they live?' the answer will
draw a blank. Yet every member of the Latin Mass Society has to
say there are exceptions to the dogma EENS, to remain in good
standing.
_________________________
Over the last year or so Mass has been celebrated for us by Bishop Hopes, the new Bishop of East Anglia, Bishop John Arnold, an auxiliary Bishop of Westminster, and Bishop McMahon in his own diocese of Northampton.
Lionel:
All of them offer Mass with Cushingism which contradicts the
Nicene Creed ( I believe in one baptism for the forgiveness of
sin and not three known baptisms )and rejects the dogma EENS.
They interpret Vatican Council II with an irrationality and then
conclude that that the Council is a a break with Tradition. They
reject the dogmatic teaching on the infallibility of the popes ex
cathedra ( in defining EENS).
This heresy is an impediment to offering the Latin Mass or
the Novus Ordo Mass.
Nicene Creed ( I believe in one baptism for the forgiveness of
sin and not three known baptisms )and rejects the dogma EENS.
They interpret Vatican Council II with an irrationality and then
conclude that that the Council is a a break with Tradition. They
reject the dogmatic teaching on the infallibility of the popes ex
cathedra ( in defining EENS).
This heresy is an impediment to offering the Latin Mass or
the Novus Ordo Mass.
Bishop Drainey of Middlesbrough and Bishop Davis of Shrewsbury have been present at our Masses, a couple of years ago Archbishop Longley of Birmingham was.
Lionel:
They approve the Latin Mass Society since it is a part
of the liberal establishment. They have a common
theology in evangelisation, soteriology, ecclesiology
and worship.
of the liberal establishment. They have a common
theology in evangelisation, soteriology, ecclesiology
and worship.
We talk to and exchange letters with bishops both in relation to matters in their dioceses and in relation to their responsibilities in the Bishops' Conference.
Lionel:
This is good but they are never told to affirm traditional
Feeneyism and reject irrational and heretical
Cushingism since this would be the end of the dialogue.
Feeneyism and reject irrational and heretical
Cushingism since this would be the end of the dialogue.
I know, since I was a seminarian at the Beda Pontifical
College in Rome, the Catholic seminary for late vocations
under the bishops of England and Wales.Msgr. Roderick
Strange the Rector, when I was there, is still there.
He is a liberal, as the other English bishops educated
at Oxford. He is a Cushingite as is Cardinal Vincet Nichols.
They would never support Feeneyism and oppose the Left.
So they should be pleased with the theology of the Latin
Mass Society.
College in Rome, the Catholic seminary for late vocations
under the bishops of England and Wales.Msgr. Roderick
Strange the Rector, when I was there, is still there.
He is a liberal, as the other English bishops educated
at Oxford. He is a Cushingite as is Cardinal Vincet Nichols.
They would never support Feeneyism and oppose the Left.
So they should be pleased with the theology of the Latin
Mass Society.
We are also in touch with a good many different persons and departments in Rome. This kind of thing is only possible if you represent some organisation with some kind of standing, if there is continuity over many years, and if you have some kind of office support.
Lionel:
...and if you accept the contemporary magisterium's heretical
position and do not call it heresy.
position and do not call it heresy.
No lay person, no priest, could keep this kind of dialogue up consistently. We can do it, not because we are heroes, but because there is a structure to keep it going.
Lionel :
The structure supports the old Mass with the
new irrational and heretical theology supported by the
contemporary magisterium.
The structure supports the old Mass with the
new irrational and heretical theology supported by the
contemporary magisterium.
 |
| Bishop Terence Drainey at the LMS York Pilgrimage 2012 |
Something else we have is a database: of priests who say the Extraordinary Form, and of laity who want it.
Lionel:
In the database there is no known priest, I am sure,
who supports Feeneyism as a theology and offers the
traditional Latin Mass.
In the database there is no known priest, I am sure,
who supports Feeneyism as a theology and offers the
traditional Latin Mass.
On several occasions in the last year or so we have had non-public campaigns which have involved getting in touch with large numbers of priests or, in a particular part of the country, with our lay supporters, to seek their views or support for a specific initiative.
Lionel:
They have never been asked if Cushingism is heresy
and should be rejected as non Catholic, even though it is
supported by the contemporary magisterium.
They have never been asked if Cushingism is heresy
and should be rejected as non Catholic, even though it is
supported by the contemporary magisterium.
These tasks used up enormous amounts of office and volunteer time, and they would have been simply impossible without our network of supporters, our database, and the administrative support the Office gives us. We are probably never going to get any public credit for these things, but if you'll take my word for it they were important and successful. If the Latin Mass Society hadn't existed, these things would not have happened.
Does the Latin Mass Society do anything useful? Yes, we do. If you are at all interested in dealing in a positive way with the aftermath of the 'collapse of the liturgy' which Pope Benedict spoke about as Cardinal Ratzinger, then it must be pretty difficult to say that we don't have a positive role to play. We can't do this without support. Forget your prejudices about not wanting to join things, or about what happened twenty years ago, or whatever it is which stops you joining, and join the Latin Mass Society!
Does the Latin Mass Society do anything useful? Yes, we do. If you are at all interested in dealing in a positive way with the aftermath of the 'collapse of the liturgy' which Pope Benedict spoke about as Cardinal Ratzinger, then it must be pretty difficult to say that we don't have a positive role to play. We can't do this without support. Forget your prejudices about not wanting to join things, or about what happened twenty years ago, or whatever it is which stops you joining, and join the Latin Mass Society!
Lionel:
The Latin Mass Society like the those associated
with the Novus Ordo Mass, unintentionally promotes
liberalism, irrationality, heresy, non traditional and
innovative doctrines.Also when this charge is
made no one denies it. -Lionel Andrades
1.
http://www.lmschairman.org/2013/09/what-does-latin-mass-society-do-3.html
Note:
Dr.Joseph Shaw has posted a comment on his blog for me.
http://www.lmschairman.org/2015/11/prayers-for-jews-in-liturgy-of-hours.html#comment-form
In the past Joseph Shaw has said I am 'rude' and now he
is saying he is 'bored' but the professor of theology
will not comment theology-wise on what I write.- Lionel
The Latin Mass Society like the those associated
with the Novus Ordo Mass, unintentionally promotes
liberalism, irrationality, heresy, non traditional and
innovative doctrines.Also when this charge is
made no one denies it. -Lionel Andrades
1.
Joseph Shaw removes comment : maintains
Cushingite image
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2015/11/joseph-shaw-removes-comment-maintains.html
Questions for Dr.Joseph Shaw : answers from me
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2015/11/questions-for-drjoseph-shaw-answers.html
http://www.lmschairman.org/2013/09/what-does-latin-mass-society-do-3.html
Note:
Dr.Joseph Shaw has posted a comment on his blog for me.
http://www.lmschairman.org/2015/11/prayers-for-jews-in-liturgy-of-hours.html#comment-form
In the past Joseph Shaw has said I am 'rude' and now he
is saying he is 'bored' but the professor of theology
will not comment theology-wise on what I write.- Lionel
Posts
that I am going to delete them systematically from now on.