A continuation of the discussion with IAAD from the last blog post.
Introibo Ad Altare Dei (IAAD)
Major premise: The First Vatican Council obliges us to believe everything taught both ex cathedra and by the Universal and Ordinary Magisterium as belonging to the Faith.
Minor Premise: The unanimous teaching of the theologians tells us the Universal and Ordinary Magisterium finds its expression in catechisms approved by the Holy See.
Conclusion: Whatever is taught in Catechisms approved by the Holy See is infallibly true--as per the teaching of the First Vatican Council
- Lionel:Yes. They would be true but in this specific case if you use an irrational premise to interpret them then the conclusion is non traditional and non Catholic.
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Major Premise: Everything taught in catechisms approved by the Holy See is infallibly true (see above)
Minor Premise: BOD and BOB is taught in catechisms approved by the Holy See.
Conclusion: Bod and BOB without BOW as sufficient for Church membership and salvation is infallibly true.If you deny this, you are NOT CATHOLIC!
Lionel: Do the Catechisms say BOD and BOB are explicit or impliict, visible or invisible ?
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Introibo: No. I believe that they are in error therefore they are not legitimate popes and V2 is not a legitimate council. It is a new and false religion.
Lionel:So you believe they are in error. The catechisms are also in error. So why are you complaining when I say the same thing?
Introibo: For someone who's big on alleged distinctions of "visible and invisible" you can't distinguish between "true pope/false pope."
In other words, sedevacantists are not teaching that catechisms approved by the Holy See teach error. We are saying, in conformity of the unanimous consent of the theologians, the papal decree of Pope Paul IV "Ex Cum Apostolatus Officio", of 1559, and canon law that a heretic CANNOT be pope. Therefore, when the post-V2 popes professed heresy in their personal capacity they ceased to be (or never became) pope. Hence, there was no protection of the Holy Ghost from error since they were not members of the Church. YOU think a professed heretic can be pope! Therefore, the Holy Ghost failed the Church! That is blasphemy. The difference between our positions is very clear!
- Lionel: So the bottom line is that you reject the Catechism ( 1992).
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Lionel: I give specific references. I do not say in general they are in error.
Introibo: No you don't. You simply state "this is wrong" with no authoritative teaching of the Church to back it up.
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Lionel: BOD and BOB are mentioned in Church documents. The documents do not say that they are explicit or implicit, visible and invisible. You interpret them as being visible. This is irrational. I say this based on common knowledge. Common sense.
- I cite text like LG 16 etc and say that I affirm them but as being invisible for us and visible only for God.
The inference is the issue and not the paricular text . We both read the same Church documents. You read it with an inference and I avoid that inference.
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Lionel: Also I know that the specific error to which I refer to can be corrected.
Introibo: Really?? You do?? Your "popes" can't figure it out but YOU can! I thought the popes were guided by the Holy Ghost to teach the laity and not vice-versa! The real Magisterium becomes you in your bizarre "Alice in Wonderland" world.
Lionel: The error can be corrected by avoiding the inference. You don't have to be a pope or even know theology to figure this out.
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Introibo Ad Altare Dei
Introibo: For a complete list of pre-Vatican II theologians (as well as canon law citations) on loss of papal office, please see Traditionalists, Infallibility, and The Pope by Fr. Cekada at traditionalmass.org.
Lionel:Fr. Cekada ? For him LG 16 is explicit and an exception to the strict interpretation of the dogma EENS. How can people now in Heaven, be exceptions to the Feeneyite version of the dogma?
And if the members of Fr. Leonard Feeney's communities in the USA do not accept BOD and BOB as being explicit; if they claim they cannot see these deceased now in Heaven, Fr. Cekada says they are in mortal sin!
Introibo: I was talking about HIS CITATIONS. You can look up the long list of theologians and even a papal decree that state a heretic can't be pope!
Lionel: Pope Pius XII made an objective error in the Boston Case. He mixed up what was invisible as being visible. I mentioned this in an earlier post. Is he a false pope for you?
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Second, you are in mortal sin against the faith (heresy) if you dent BOD and BOB.
Lionel: I repeat I do not deny BOD and BOB. I do not have to deny them since they are not relevant or exceptions to EENS.I accept them.
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. You admit we can't see anyone in Heaven with or without BOW. So how do we know any saint, such as St. Maria Goretti, is in Heaven? By Faith! You admitted that too!
Lionel:
Yes. Agreed.In faith we accept that the saints are in Heaven. In faith I accept that a person could be saved with the baptism of desire and baptism of blood.I admit that a person can be saved in invincible ignorance. I admit this in faith. In faith I accept the dogma EENS which says all who are saved need to be formal members of the Church. In faith I accept that God has chosen 'faith and baptism' in the Catholic Church as the only way to avoid Hell in the present times. If God, being God, choses to save a person without the baptism of water, I would not know about it.Since I and others would not know about it the baptism of desire etc is not postulated by me, as being relevant or an exception to the traditional de fide interpretation of EENS.
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We know St. Victor is in Heaven without BOW and by BOB because the Church is infallible in Her Liturgy and teaches this truth.
Lionel: We know St. Victor is in Heaven since he is a saint recognised by the Church. The Church can decide that someone is a saint.
That he is Heaven without the baptism of water and so contradicting the dogma EENS is speculation. No can claim this or verify it.
The Church does not say that someone had a special charism to see people in Heaven without the baptism of water.
Any way this is a case in the past and such a case you would agree would be unknown today to be relevant or an exception to all needing to formally enter the Church to avoid Hell and go to Heaven.
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You deny the infallibility of the universal and Ordinary Magisterium as defined ex catherda by the First Vatican Council. The Holy Ghost prevents the teaching of error and He DOES see the dead!
Lionel: He cannot objectively, in his writings discern objective and subjective cases. Could he also be wrong on other issues?
Introibo: Absolutely. He can be wrong but the AUTHORITY OF THE CHURCH HE CITES CANNOT BE WRONG!
Lionel: Yes the pope can be wrong about so many things in daily life. He could make a an accidental, unintentional mistake in the ordinary magisterium too which can be corrected.He is always correct on faith and morals when he speaks ex cathedra and in agreement with Tradition.
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Lionel: I have said that I accept BOD and BOB.I repeat I accept them.
Introibo: You do not accept them as taught and understood by the Church. Do you believe that St. Victor is in Heaven without BOW because of BOB? If so, congratulations on your conversion! God bless! If not, you are a heretic.
Lionel: I accept them as being implicit. I reject them as being explicit. There will be no comment from you on this point.You will not make the distinction. Since for you these cases are explicit and so an exception to the dogma EENS.
Introibo: Here we go again. BOD and BOB have NOTHING to do with EENS, which simply states only members of the Catholic Church who die in the state of grace can be saved.
Lionel: I accept them as being implicit. I reject them as being explicit. As expected there is no comment from you.
Your not saying BOD and BOB have nothing to do with EENS since they are invisible for us. You are not saying they are always unknown cases.
Instead you are giving me some theology.Is this theology of yours based on BOD and BOB being visible or invisible for us?
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Those who receive the miracle of BOD and BOB are infused with Faith and Sanctifying Grace at the moment of death, and thereby go to Heaven as Catholics, like St. Victor.
Lionel: How do you know if St. Victor did not receive the baptism of water ? Who in the Church can say for sure that he did not receive the baptism of water? St. Francis Xavier and the saints tell us people have returned to earth from the dead only to be baptised with water. St. Thomas Aquinas said if there is a man in the jungle in invincible ignorance and he is to be saved, God will send a preacher to him. He will be baptised before he goes to Heaven.So even theologically the saints are saying that the baptism of water is necessary for all and there are no exceptions.
- So who is the human being who said authoritively that St. Victor is in Heaven without the baptism of water? What was his name?
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YOU think a person is outside the Church unless they receive BOW, and thereby confuse the issue with EENS.
Lionel: This was the dogmatic teaching. Vatican Council II (AG 7, LG 14) also states all need 'faith and baptism'.
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All saints are "implicit and invisible" Lionel! We know what we do on the authority of the CHURCH which you REJECT!
Lionel: Yes the saints in Heaven are invisible for us in 2015.Also BOD and BOB cases are invisible for us in 2015. So in 2015 there are no visible BOD and BOB exceptions to the dogma EENS and the need for all to receive the baptism of water to go to Heaven.
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Introibo: Isn't the very definition of "infallibility" the incapacity to teach error because the Holy Ghost (Who cannot teach error) ensures that the Pope and Councils can't make errors too?
Lionel:Yes only in ex cathedra teachings in agreement with tradition.
Introibo: Bingo! A denial of the Indefectibility of the Church and the infallible teaching of the Ordinary Magisterium as defined Ex Cathedra at The First Vatican Council!
Introibo: Humans protected by the Holy Ghost cannot make errors in official teachings! Do you deny this of the Church?
Lionel:Humans, popes, cannot make error ex cathedra on faith and morals.So there is no error on the issue of salvation and the dogma before 1808. After 1808 due to an oversight a particular doctrinal error has come into the Church. Also due to political pressure, humans ( popes, cardinals) overlooked the error or allowed it in the ordinary magisterium.
Introibo: More proof Lionel holds the heretical notion that the Holy Ghost can allow the Ordinary Magisterium to err! As if GOD can be overcome by "pressure groups"!
Lionel: The pope is infallible only ex cathedra i.e in the the Extra Ordinary Magisterium .
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The teaching of BOD and BOB were taught by
Pope Innocent II "Apostolicam Sedem" (1143 AD)
The Council of Trent (1545-1563) --Decree on Justification
Catechism of Trent (1566)
Lionel:
None of them said BOD and BOB are visible instead of invisible. You have inferred this. So has Fr. Anthony Cekada. Not a single one! You do not have a single reference!
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St. Thomas Aquinas (died 1274) taught BOTH BOW and BOB/BOD without BOW
Lionel: No where did he say that BOD and BOB were known in the present times and so were exceptions to the traditional interpretation of EENS, which he affirmed.
and St. Augustine, Doctor of the Church taught in the "City of God" (397 AD):
"Those also who die for the confession of Christ without having received the laver of regeneration are released thereby from their sins just as much as if they had been cleansed by the sacred spring of baptism.
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Lionel: Fine if he believed that a person could be saved as such he was referring to a hypothetical case. This is speculation and good will. He does not and cannot know of a particular case.
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For He Who said, "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter the kingdom of God" (John 3:5) by another statement made exceptions to this when He said no less comprehensively: "Everyone...that shall confess Me before men, I will confess before My Father Who art in Heaven (Matthew 10:32)"
Lionel: He is referring to a hypothetical case. He does not know of a single such person.Neithe in this text is a claim made of knowing such cases.
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Remember St. Augustine like St. Thomas Aquinas affirmed the literal interpretation of the dogma EENS. They could not contradict themself. Since BOD and BOB does not contradict EENS. Without the inference of them being explicit, they do not contradict EENS.
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So it all started by "pressure groups" in 1808 Lionel?
Lionel: Yes lobbies and innocent Catholics assumed theoretical and speculative cases were baptisms and called it a baptism of desire and baptism of blood. Then they speculated wrongly, that these new baptisms were visible and repeatable as the baptism of water. Since these cases were wrongly assumed to be explicit,to be exceptions to all needing the baptism of water for salvation, they wrongly placed references to them in the Catechisms under the necessity of baptism.Catholics then started contradicting the Nicene Creed. It says there is one baptism for the forgiveness of sins and not three.
These new' baptisms' had nothing to do with the necessity of baptism.
The error was maintained in the catechisms, enforced in Boston in 1949 and them placed in Vatican Council II. It is now snug in the Catechism of the Catholic Church (1992) and is supported by the traditionalists and sedevacantists.
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St. Augustine clearly teaches BOB as an exception to BOW for salvation in 397 AD!
Lionel: In a theoretical, sepculative sense. It was an opinion.
He clearly does not say that these cases are personally known to us or can be known to us. A theoretical case cannot be defacto exception for example in 2015 , to all needing the baptism of water in the Catholic Church for salvation.
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He was made a saint and Doctor of the Church! How could this be if he was a heretic?
Lionel: He also affirmed the strict interpretation of the dogma EENS just like Fr. Leonard Feeney.Neither he nor Fr. Leonard Feeney were heretics.
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