Thursday, April 21, 2016

So there cannot be any known case of someone saved who is living in mortal sin. Similarly there cannot be any known case of someone saved with the baptism of desire and in invincible ignorance without the baptism of water

    1. Comments from the blog From Rome :Amoris Laetitia: Anatomy of a Pontifical Debacle
    2. How can the conditions for mortal sin or actual baptism of desire be explicit for us human beings? This is the flaw in the new theology, in faith and morals. This point is omitted in Ferrara’s critique
    3. The Editor says:
      A condition for mortal sin is 3 fold: knowledge that it is mortal, deliberation, and objectively immoral. If by explicit you mean, self-aware, then it depends on one’s self awareness, which is subjective; but if you mean objective, then one of the three is objective. Nevertheless, according to St. Alphonsus, deviations from the natural law, simply speaking, are impossible without deliberation and assent since no one can be ignorant of what is contrary to the manifest precepts of the natural law. For that reason, one does not need to address the issue directly in a critique of Amoris Laetitia, because it deals with such sins.
  1. We cannot say in any specific case that one knows that someone living in mortal sin will not go to Hell and has Sanctifying Grace.
  2. The Editor says:
    Correction: We cannot say in the case of any specific individual living in objective mortal sin that he will NOT go to Hell or that he has sanctifying grace, rather the Faith demands us to presume and declare, that unless he repents that he WILL go to Hell, and to presume and warn him, that he does not have sanctifying grace in his soul.
Lionel:
Correction: I do not remember sending you these two sentences above,I have sent you a report.You have not posted either of the two reports and instead have chosen two sentences.
Anyway I am still glad that you have chosen to answer,

Editor:
Correction: We cannot say in the case of any specific individual living in objective mortal sin that he will NOT go to Hell or that he has sanctifying grace,

Lionel :
Yes so you agree that we physically cannot see any such case.
So there  cannot be any known case of someone saved who is living in mortal sin.
Similarly there cannot be any known case of someone saved with the baptism of desire and in invincible ignorance without the baptism of water.
Just as there cannot be a 'situation ethics' in moral theology there cannot be a known situation of someone saved without 'faith and baptism', in salvation theology.
_______________________

Editor:
rather the Faith demands us to presume and declare, that unless he repents that he WILL go to Hell, and to presume and warn him, that he does not have sanctifying grace in his soul.

Lionel:

This is understood.It is not the issue.
The issue is : it is assumed there are exceptions to the traditional teachings on mortal sin.
-Lionel Andrades

635787944691218460-EPA-USA-POPE-FRANCIS-VISIT

We cannot say in any specific case that one knows that someone living in mortal sin will not go to Hell and has Sanctifying Grace

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2016/04/we-cannot-say-in-any-specific-case-that.html

https://fromrome.wordpress.com/2016/04/19/amoris-laetitia-anatomy-of-a-pontifical-debacle/#comment-451

2 comments:

Anonymous said...

http://www.usccb.org/bible/john/19

See 34

The Good Thief

Catholic Mission said...

The dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus say all need faith and baptism for salvation.Vatican Council II (AG 7, LG 14) says the same thing.
The 16th century missionaries also knew that all need faith and baptism for salvation and there are no known exceptions.
If the Good Thief was saved without the baptism of water or even if St. Emerentiana or St. Victor were allegedly saved without the baptism of water, they are not exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus(EENS) in 2016.An exception would have to be known and visible.Invisible cases cannot be an exception to EENS.
They are not exceptions in 2016 or during our life time.The baptism of water is given physically. It can be repeated physically. It can be seen physically. If there is an exception, it would have to be known physically.
A hypothetical case cannot be an exception. Someone from the past cannot be an exception in the present times.Since they do not exist in our life time.To be an exception they would have to be known.We would need to say, " Look XYZ was saved without the baptism of water.So he is an exception to the dogmatic teaching". But we cannot say this. No one can say this.Since it would mean having gone to Heaven and seen the person who is an exception.
Secondly, we do not know if the Good Thief was a disciple of Jesus and was baptised.