Lionel:
You are saying that the state of the soul is invisible and I agree with
you.You are saying that there are no baptism of desire cases in 2016 seen
with the naked eye, there are no physically visible baptism of desire or
invincible ignorance cases in 2016 saved without the baptism of water.We
agree here. This is something
obvious.
______________________________
That is irrelevant to the fact that the Church can and has declared that BOD joins one to the Church for salvation.
Lionel: Agreed.The Church has declared that BOD joins one to the Church for salvation.( Letter of the Holy Office 1949 etc).
______________________________
It doesn't matter if BOD cases are invisible in 2016
.Lionel: It does not matter if BOD cases are invisible in 2016 the Church has stated that BOD joins one to the Church for salvation, BOD results in salvation.O.K.Agreed.The Church says this even though BOD is physically not visible in 2016.
______________________________
It doesn't matter what I am or am not aware of, or believe about
someone's desire for baptism.
Lionel: It does not matter what is your personal views or those of others on this issue.The Church says BOD leads to salvation and you also believe that BOD cases are not visible in 2016 to the naked eye.
______________________________
Your error in this regard is assuming that reality is based upon your
experiential knowledge. Not true
Lionel: The Church says BOD leads to salvation without the baptism of water and our reality tells us that there are no known cases, and there can be no known cases, of the baptism of desire, in 2016.
So this is what we both agree upon.It is also known to others.
O.K I can agree with you here.
The Church says BOD leads to salvation without the baptism of water( Letter of the Holy Office 1949 second part) and so the Church is saying there is salvation outside the Church. The Church is saying every one does not need to be ' a card carrying member' of the Church.The Church says this even though neither you or I can personally know of this exception to the rule.Neither could any one in the past know of this case of someone saved with BOD or I.I without the baptism of water.We both agree that there are no physically visible cases of someone saved without the baptism of water and so no one could claim over history that they saw such a case, such an exception.So for me the Church( 1949) has made a mistake since there are no physical cases of BOD or I.I and for you the Church has not made a mistake. There is known salvation outside the Church, all do not need to enter the church visibly (with faith and baptism) in 2016.
Do we agree here?
______________________________
That is irrelevant to the fact that the Church can and has declared that BOD joins one to the Church for salvation.
Lionel: Agreed.The Church has declared that BOD joins one to the Church for salvation.( Letter of the Holy Office 1949 etc).
______________________________
It doesn't matter if BOD cases are invisible in 2016
.Lionel: It does not matter if BOD cases are invisible in 2016 the Church has stated that BOD joins one to the Church for salvation, BOD results in salvation.O.K.Agreed.The Church says this even though BOD is physically not visible in 2016.
______________________________
It doesn't matter what I am or am not aware of, or believe about
someone's desire for baptism.
Lionel: It does not matter what is your personal views or those of others on this issue.The Church says BOD leads to salvation and you also believe that BOD cases are not visible in 2016 to the naked eye.
______________________________
Your error in this regard is assuming that reality is based upon your
experiential knowledge. Not true
Lionel: The Church says BOD leads to salvation without the baptism of water and our reality tells us that there are no known cases, and there can be no known cases, of the baptism of desire, in 2016.
So this is what we both agree upon.It is also known to others.
O.K I can agree with you here.
The Church says BOD leads to salvation without the baptism of water( Letter of the Holy Office 1949 second part) and so the Church is saying there is salvation outside the Church. The Church is saying every one does not need to be ' a card carrying member' of the Church.The Church says this even though neither you or I can personally know of this exception to the rule.Neither could any one in the past know of this case of someone saved with BOD or I.I without the baptism of water.We both agree that there are no physically visible cases of someone saved without the baptism of water and so no one could claim over history that they saw such a case, such an exception.So for me the Church( 1949) has made a mistake since there are no physical cases of BOD or I.I and for you the Church has not made a mistake. There is known salvation outside the Church, all do not need to enter the church visibly (with faith and baptism) in 2016.
Do we agree here?
-Lionel Andrades
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