Sunday, August 7, 2016

SSPX, FSSP Latin Mass in Rome today a rupture with Tradition but not for me

Image result for Photo of Mass at the  SSPX chapel Rome St.Catheruine of Sienna Chapel
Today morning Fr. Aldo Rossi, Prior of the Society of St. Pius X, Albano,Italy offered the Traditional Latin Mass(TLM) at the SSPX's St.Catherine of Siena chapel near the Cavour Metro Station in Rome.While elsewhere in Rome  the TLM was offered  by FSSP priests.
Neither the SSPX priest or the FSSP priests offered the Tridentine Rite Mass as it was offered in pre- Council of Trent times.Since they  interpret Catholic doctrine with the new theology.
The new theology is a break with the old ecclesiology based on the strict interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
So at the Latin Mass today we have the liturgical form but not the ancient theology and Catholic doctrines.
Fr.Aldo Rossi may say that he affirms the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus(EENS). But he refers to EENS in which there are known exceptions.For him there are people who do not need to enter the Church to be saved. For the SSPX being saved with the baptism of desire,for example, is an exception. It refers to someone in Heaven without the baptism of water.
This is the new theology.
Similarly this is the religious formation of FSSP priests and other priests in general. It is also the religious formation of the Internet Padre, Fr. John Zuhlsdorf and the Dominican priests in Norcia. This is the new theology of the priests of the Institute of Christ the King who also offer the Latin Mass.
So the theology of the Latin Mass today is the same as that of Mass offered in Rome in other languages. The ecclesiology of the priests offering Mass in Italian or English is the same as that of the FSSP and SSPX priests.
For all of them there are exceptions to the traditional salvation theology associated with the 16th century missionaries, when they offered the Latin Mass.
Fr.John Zuhlsdorf has reported of the bishop of Manchester, USA permits the FSSP priests to offer the Latin Mass in his diocese at a new church.They will do this of course with the new ecclesiology of the bishop. He interprets Vatican Council II with hypothetical cases being objectively known. If he would consider hypothetical cases as being only hypothetical, then the Mass in English which Bishop Peter Libasci offers, would have the pre-Council of Trent ecclesiology and it would be sensational.
In the diocese of Manchester the community of Fr. Leonard  Feeney, the Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, recognised by the bishop, had been attending the Tridentine Rite Mass. They affirm the old ecclesiology on the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. However they interpret Vatican Council II,like Bishop Libasci, as being a rupture with extra ecclesiam nulla salus, as it was known to the 16th century missionaries.
So even though the Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary attended the Latin Mass at their community chapel, the ecclesiology of Vatican Council II was a rupture with the past.Their position is the same as the SSPX and FSSP priests in Rome.
I attended the Tridentine Rite Mass today morning and also Mass in Italian in the evening. For me there was no break in ecclesiology.There was no rupture, in my mind, with the pre-Council of Trent ecclesiology. I interpret Vatican Council II in harmony with the strict interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. The old ecclesiology supports an ecumenism of return and is the basis for the teaching on the Social Reign of Christ the King and Religious Liberty.
 I couldn't have had it so good!I feel special!
-Lionel Andrades 

7 comments:

Anonymous said...

Some queries:

1. The Mass expresses the theology in the texts, not according to the subjective belief of the offering priest. If what you're saying was true, how could you ever know if the Mass is being offered with the "correct" theology or not, since you can't read someone's mind? He could be heretical on some other point of doctrine.

2. You miss what's wrong with the Novus Ordo. For example, it has eliminated black as a liturgical color, and turned the altar into the ancient form of a table. How is this not a rupture with the past when these practices have been condemned by Pope Pius XII in Mediator Dei? The changing of the Mass into a Protestant meal (bantering back and forth over the table, altar girls, laymen handing out "Comminion", singing profane songs---what does any of this have to do with "Feeneyism"? They are Protestant changes apart from EENS.

Catholic Mission said...

1. The Mass expresses the theology in the texts, not according to the subjective belief of the offering priest.
Lionel:The subjective belief of the priest offering Holy Mass is a negation of the Nicene Creed, the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus, the Syllabus of Errors and Vatican Council II ( Feeneyite) and Catechism of the Catholic Church (Feeneyite).Isn't this enough for you?
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If what you're saying was true, how could you ever know if the Mass is being offered with the "correct" theology or not, since you can't read someone's mind? He could be heretical on some other point of doctrine.
Lionel:In general the priests who offer the Latin Mass or Mass in the vernacular, affirm the new theology.So they interpret hypothetical references as being explicit. In this way their conclusion is non traditional and heretical. It is acceptable to the contemporary magisterium and the Jewish Left.
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Catholic Mission said...

2. You miss what's wrong with the Novus Ordo. For example, it has eliminated black as a liturgical color, and turned the altar into the ancient form of a table. How is this not a rupture with the past when these practices have been condemned by Pope Pius XII in Mediator Dei?
Lionel:
O.K.
However inspite of this(colour of vestments and altar form) the Mass is still the unbloody Sacrifice of Jesus re-enacted.It is a valid offering to God the Father.
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The changing of the Mass into a Protestant meal (bantering back and forth over the table, altar girls, laymen handing out "Comminion", singing profane songs---what does any of this have to do with "Feeneyism"? They are Protestant changes apart from EENS.
Lionel:
The theology of the Novus Ordo and Latin Mass is Protestant too; in the sense that the theology has been changed.
If the theology has been changed then our understanding of Church( ecclesiology) has also been changed. Our form of worship and understanding of salvation has also been changed. Even fundamental doctrine like the Creed has been changed.So this is a rupture with Tradition.
The priest may be wearing black and offering Mass ad orientum but he is in first class heresy and this is the norm.It is happening in general.This is also the religious formation of seminarians at the traditionalist and mainline seminaries.

Anonymous said...

Lionel:The subjective belief of the priest offering Holy Mass is a negation of the Nicene Creed, the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus, the Syllabus of Errors and Vatican Council II ( Feeneyite) and Catechism of the Catholic Church (Feeneyite).Isn't this enough for you?

No. Please cite one theologian or papal teaching that states the subjective belief of the priest negates the Nicene Creed or the syllabus of errors (not even part of Mass. You simply made it up.

2. The Novus Ordo is invalid on two counts; mutilation of the form, and the invalidity of the 1968 rite of Holy Orders by changing the form. See the article New Bishops Empty Tabernacle at traditionalmass.org. This has nothing to do with EENS. It's changing the forms of the sacraments to invalid ones based on the teaching of the Church.

Catholic Mission said...


Lionel:The subjective belief of the priest offering Holy Mass is a negation of the Nicene Creed, the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus, the Syllabus of Errors and Vatican Council II ( Feeneyite) and Catechism of the Catholic Church (Feeneyite).Isn't this enough for you?

No. Please cite one theologian or papal teaching that states the subjective belief of the priest negates the Nicene Creed or the syllabus of errors (not even part of Mass. You simply made it up.

Lionel:
Heresy is a mortal sin.We have to affirm de fide teachings of the Church.
The priests at the Novus Ordo and Latin Mass in principle accept that hypothetical cases of the baptism of desire etc are explicit in the present times. They infer this by accepting the second part of the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 to the Archbishop of Boston.It indicates all do not need to enter the Church and there are exceptions of the baptism of desire etc.So since they are explicit all do not need to enter the Catholic Church in 2016. Since they are explicit there is salvation(known) outside the Church.
1.This is a negation of the Nicene Creed which says ' I believe in one baptism for the forgivenes of sin'. The reference is to one known baptism, the baptism of water.
With exceptions there are more then one baptism and that too without the baptism of water.They are the baptism of desire and blood, saved in invincible ignorance etc.
So with this mental concept, with this heresy the priest offers Holy Mass.

2.
Since for you there are known exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus(EENS) you have rejected the Feeneyite EENS and replaced it with the Cushingite EENS as expressed here:-

Therefore, that one may obtain eternal salvation, it is not always required that he be incorporated into the Church actually as a member, but it is necessary that at least he be united to her by desire and longing.-Letter of the Holy Office 1949

This is magisterial heresy. It is with this heresy the priest offers Holy Mass.

3. The Syllabus of Errors on an ecumenism of return is also contradicted here.

Therefore, that one may obtain eternal salvation, it is not always required that he be incorporated into the Church actually as a member, but it is necessary that at least he be united to her by desire and longing.-Letter of the Holy Office 1949

Since there is salvation outside the Church according to this passage there is the 'known' Anonymous Christian who will be saved and so there is no more an ecumenism of return.

This is the new theology, the new ecclesiology of the sedevacantists Bishop Donald Sanborn and Fr. Anthony Cekada and the it is expressed officially on the SSPX website.



Anonymous said...

You have not answered about the invalidly of both the Mass and Holy Orders due to defect of form.

All you're saying as to the Offering of Mass is that it is the mass of a heretic, not that it's being "offered with new theology." Masses of heretics must be avoided but you attend them. You can't attend the mass of the Greek Orthodox as long as you "believe correctly"

As I suspected, you did not cite ONE theologian or papal decree to support your intention. Nor did you reply at all to the invalidating change to the forms of the sacraments.

Catholic Mission said...



Anonymous Anonymous said...
You have not answered about the invalidly of both the Mass and Holy Orders due to defect of form.
Lionel:I didn't think there was any thing special about what Fr. Cekada wrote.It's his opinion. He made a factual mistake on Feeneyism. He could be wrong here too.
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All you're saying as to the Offering of Mass is that it is the mass of a heretic, not that it's being "offered with new theology."
Lionel: It is a general heresy.
It is being offered with the new theology and they are not aware of the irrationality of the new theology, which creates the heresy.The problem exists with the liberals, traditionalists and sedevacantists. They all were not aware of the Letter of the Hoy Office 1949 heresy which really was blatant.
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Masses of heretics must be avoided but you attend them.
Lionel : I don't have a choice.
The priests are not aware of the error.
Secondly even if a priest is in mortal sin, the Mass is still valid.
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You can't attend the mass of the Greek Orthodox as long as you "believe correctly"
Lionel:
I prefer the Catholic Church and the Latin Rite.
_____________________

As I suspected, you did not cite ONE theologian or papal decree to support your intention.
Lionel: I am saying that I cannot see people in Heaven. All the theologians inferg that they and all of us can see people in Heaven.Then upon this irrationality they build their new theology and it is accepted by the magisterium.It is the same with Fr.Cekada's reports on line on the baptism of desire. It is the same with Bishop Sanborn.
Instead of correcting the error or showing me where I am wrong, if I am wrong,they keep quiet about it.
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Nor did you reply at all to the invalidating change to the forms of the sacraments.
Lionel: I read Fr.Cekada's report briefly and I could not understand how the form had changed.
I have attended Mass in Greek here and also the Syro Malabar Mass.The Byzantine Greek Mass preceded the Latin Mass.I do not know about the Syro Malabar Rite.
How has the form changed, please explain it to me?
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