Wednesday, August 17, 2016

Swetland, Spencer and Mariani discussion based on Vatican Council II( Cushingite) instead of Vatican Council II( Feeneyite)

We are all Catholics says Msgr. Stuart Swetland in the introduction to the discussion with  Robert Spencer and Drew Mariani  on Relevant Radio.1
Msgr. Stuart Swetland and Robert Spencer , note, do not affirm the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus(EENS)  and interpret Vatican Council II with Cushingism instead of Feeneyism.About Drew Mariani I do not know.
The contemporary Magisterium itself affirms EENS (Cushingite) instead of EENS (Feeneyism).Their position is irrational, non traditional and heretical. It is a break with the pre- Council of Trent magsiterium of the Church.
According to EENS ( Feeneyite), Vatican Council II( Feeneyite) and the Catechism of the Catholic Church ( Feeneyite) Islam is not a path to salvation and all Muslims are oriented to Hell. Since they do not have 'faith and baptism'(Ad Gentes 7, Lumen Gentium 14).At the time of death they are not visible members of the Church, with 'faith and baptism'.
The present magisterium does not refer to Ad Gentes 7 and Lumen Gentium 14 which says all need faith and baptism for salvation,since this would include Islam and Judaism.It also does not affirm Nostra Aetate 4 which says Catholics are the new people of God.
So when the present magisterium omits any referenace to Ad Gentes 7, Lumen Gentium 14 and Nostra Aetate 2 and interprets all magisterial documents with Cushingiim instead of Feeneyism,  it is a new interpretation of the Faith.
To convert the whole world, as Msgr. Stuart Swetland mentions in the discussion, it is necessary to speak the truth.It necessary to tell Muslims what the Catholic Church teaches in its magisterial documents ( Vatican Council II,Catechism of the Catholic Church and dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus).

It is also necessary to point out that the present popes and magisterium are using an irrational premise and conclusion to interpret Vatican Council II as a rupture with the teachings of the popes and magisterium, of the past.
Neither will Robert Spencer or Msgr. Stuart Swetland interpret magisterial documents, including Vatican Council II, with Feeneyism. 

“Catholic Popes on Islam,” by Msgr. Stuart Swetland, August 13, 2016: 2
Catholics believe that our bishops, the successors of the Apostles, especially the Bishop of Rome, the successor of St. Peter, teach with a greater than human authority in matters of faith and morals. Thus we owe to their teaching a “religious submission of mind and will.” Here is how the Second Vatican Council taught it:
Lionel: Pope Francis does not affirm the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus nor does he affirm Dominus Iesus(20) or Vatican Council II( AG 7 and LG 14) which says 'all' need 'faith and baptism' for salvation. This includes  all non Catholics. He has never said that Catholics are the new people of God( NA 2).He does not state that most people are on the way to Hell at the time of death, since they do not have 'faith and baptism'(AG 7, LG 14).In general he interprets magisterial documents with irrational Cushingism instead of rational and traditional Feeneyism.So his hermeneutics is a rupture with the popes and Church Councils of the past.
Lumen Gentium 25: “In matters of faith and morals, the bishops speak in the name of Christ and the faithful are to accept their teaching and adhere to it with a religious assent. This religious submission of mind and will must be shown in a special way to the authentic magisterium of the Roman Pontiff, even when he is not speaking ex cathedra; that is, it must be shown in such a way that his supreme magisterium is acknowledged with reverence, the judgments made by him are sincerely adhered to, according to his manifest mind and will. His mind and will in the matter may be known either from the character of the documents, from his frequent repetition of the same doctrine, or from his manner of speaking.”
Lionel: Agreed.However today (2016) we have popes contradicting the popes of the past and cardinals against cardinals.We have seen the critical to papal exhortation Amoris Laetitia, from cardinals and bishops.

Secondly we now know that there are factual errors in Vatican Council II which have come from the objective error in the second part of the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 to the Archbishop of Boston.For example, there are no known cases of the baptism of desire(BOD) and BOD was never relevant or an exception to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus(Feeneyite).So the baptism of desire ( LG 14) and being saved in invincible ignorance(LG 16) should never have been mentioned in Vatican Council II.
This is a human error and it is not the teaching of the Holy Spirit.
In Latin, “religious submission” is obsequium religiosum and Canon 752 of the 1983 Code of Canon Law for Latin rite Catholics states: “Although not an assent of faith, a religious submission of the intellect and will must be given to a doctrine which the Supreme Pontiff or the college of bishops declares concerning faith or morals when they exercise the authentic magisterium, even if they do not intend to proclaim it by definitive act; therefore, the Christian faithful are to take care to avoid those things which do not agree with it.” In the 1990 Code of Canons of the Oriental Churches, Canon 599 demands a similar response: “A religious obsequium of intellect and will, even if not the assent of faith, is to be paid to the teaching on faith or morals which the Roman Pontiff or the college of bishops enunciate when they exercise the authentic magisterium even if they do not intend to proclaim it with a definitive act; therefore the Christian faithful are to take care to avoid whatever is not in harmony with that teaching.”
Lionel: One cannot cite Canon Law to enforce heresy and irrationality.For example, Vatican Council II can be interpreted with Feeneyism or Cushingism.The  conclusions are different. The Cushingite interpretation is heretical and irrational.Does one have to given assent to this view ? Do we support this view as Catholics, because it is enforced by the political Left?

My main purpose in having a discussion with Robert Spencer, a Catholic, on a Catholic radio network was to show clearly that his positions on Islam were at odds with Catholic teaching. For just a small sampling of magisterial teachings on Islam since VII:
Lionel: He refers to Vatican Council II interpreted with Cushingism instead of Feeneyism. According to Vatican Council II (Feeneyism) all non Catholics need faith and baptism to avoid Hell. Also in Vatican Council II (Feeneyism) there are no known exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus( outside the Church there is no salvation) .So it is saying all non Catholics are on the way to Hell and defacto we cannot know of any exception in 2016.This is Vatican Council II.

When will Msgr. Stuart Swetland say this? Then let us see the reaction all over the world.This would be magisterial.
Second Vatican Council, Nostra Aetate 3: “The Catholic Church rejects nothing of what is true and holy in these religions. She has a high regard for the manner of life and conduct, the precepts and doctrines which, although differing in many ways from her own teaching, nevertheless often reflect a ray of that truth which enlightens all men. Yet she proclaims and is in duty bound to proclaim without fail, Christ who is ‘the way, the truth and the life’ (Jn 1:6). In him, in whom God reconciled all things to himself (cf. 2Co 5:18-19), men find the fullness of their religious life. The Church, therefore, urges her sons to enter with prudence and charity into discussion and collaboration with members of other religions. Let Christians, while witnessing to their own faith and way of life, acknowledge, preserve and encourage the spiritual and moral truths found among non-Christians, also their social life and culture. The Church has also a high regard for the Muslims. They worship God, who is one, living and subsistent, merciful and almighty, the Creator of heaven and earth (Cf. St. Gregory VII, Letter III, 21 to Anazir [Al-Nasir], King of Mauretania PL, 148.451A.), who has spoken to men. They strive to submit themselves without reserve to the hidden decrees of God, just as Abraham submitted himself to God’s plan, to whose faith Muslims eagerly link their own. Although not acknowledging him as God, they venerate Jesus as a prophet, his Virgin Mother they also honor, and even at times devoutly invoke. Further, they await the day of judgment and the reward of God following the resurrection of the dead. For this reason they highly esteem an upright life and worship God, especially by way of prayer, alms-deeds and fasting. Over the centuries many quarrels and dissensions have arisen between Christians and Muslims. The sacred Council now pleads with all to forget the past, and urges that a sincere effort be made to achieve mutual understanding; for the benefit of all men, let them together preserve and promote peace, liberty, social justice and moral values.”
Lionel: No where does Nostra Aetate state that non Catholic religions in general are paths to salvation or that there are known exceptions to the dogma EENS.So Nostra Aetate does not contradict Ad Gentes 7 and Lumen Gentium 14.We can have good relations with non Catholics since Jesus asks this of us.Jesus asks us to love all people.However Jesus also asks us to speak the truth. and proclaim it.Msgr. Stuart Swetland is not doing this.
Secondly in answer to a questioner, who said that Vatican Council II is heretical, Msgr. Stuart Swetland considered the person not a Catholic.He did not respond.There was a need for a clarification. Vatican Council II( Cushingite) is heretical.It has what Pope Benedict refers to a hermeneutic of rupture. Vatican Council II( Feeneyite) is traditional and affirms the old ecclesiology.
Paul VI, Ecclesiam Suam 107, August 6, 1964: “Then [we refer] to the adorers of God according to the conception of monotheism, the Muslim religion especially, deserving of our admiration for all that is true and good in their worship of God.”
Lionel: There are good things in other  religions but the religions are not paths to salvation.( CDF,Notification on Fr. Jacques Dupuis S,J 2001).Pope Paul VI, in Evangelii Nuntiandi affirms the strict interpretation of the dogma EENS. He was in line with the 16th century missionaries' understanding of EENS and other religions.
John Paul II, Address on Culture, Art and Science, Astana, Kazakhstan, September 24, 2001: “In this context, and precisely here in the land of encounter and dialogue, and before this distinguished audience, I wish to reaffirm the Catholic Church’s respect for Islam, for authentic Islam: the Islam that prays, that is concerned for those in need. Recalling the errors of the past, including the most recent past, all believers ought to unite their efforts to ensure that God is never made the hostage of human ambitions. Hatred, fanaticism and terrorism profane the name of God and disfigure the true image of man.”
Benedict XVI, Apostolic Exhortation, Ecclesia in Medio Oriente, September 14, 2012 (excerpt):  “19. The Church’s universal nature and vocation require that she engage in dialogue with the members of other religions. In the Middle East this dialogue is based on the spiritual and historical bonds uniting Christians to Jews and Muslims. It is a dialogue which is not primarily dictated by pragmatic political or social considerations, but by underlying theological concerns which have to do with faith. They are grounded in the sacred Scriptures and are clearly defined in the Dogmatic Constitution on the Church Lumen Gentium. . . and in the Declaration on the Church’s Relation to Non-Christian Religions Nostra Aetate. . . . . . Jews, Christians and Muslims alike believe in one God, the Creator of all men and women. May Jews, Christians and Muslims rediscover one of God’s desires, that of the unity and harmony of the human family. May Jews, Christians and Muslims find in other believers brothers and sisters to be respected and loved, and in this way, beginning in their own lands, give the beautiful witness of serenity and concord between the children of Abraham. Rather than being exploited in endless conflicts which are unjustifiable for authentic believers, the acknowledgment of one God – if lived with a pure heart – can make a powerful contribution to peace in the region and to respectful coexistence on the part of its peoples….23. The Catholic Church, in fidelity to the teachings of the Second Vatican Council. . . , looks with esteem to Muslims, who worship God above all by prayer, almsgiving and fasting, revere Jesus as a prophet while not acknowledging his divinity, and honor Mary, his Virgin Mother. We know that the encounter of Islam and Christianity has often taken the form of doctrinal controversy. Sadly, both sides have used doctrinal differences as a pretext for justifying, in the name of religion, acts of intolerance, discrimination, marginalization and even of persecution…. 24. Despite this fact, Christians live daily alongside Muslims in the Middle East, where their presence is neither recent nor accidental, but has a long history. As an integral part of the Middle East, Christians have developed over the centuries a type of relationship with their surroundings which can prove instructive. They have let themselves be challenged by Muslim devotion and piety, and have continued, in accordance with their means and to the extent possible, to live by and to promote the values of the Gospel in the surrounding culture. The result has been a particular form of symbiosis. It is proper, then, to acknowledge the contribution made by Jews, Christians and Muslims in the formation of a rich culture proper to the Middle East…”
Lionel: Pope John  Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI were interpreting Vatican Council II with Cushingism.
Pope Francis, The Joy of the Gospel: “253. We Christians should embrace with affection and respect Muslim immigrants to our countries in the same way that we hope and ask to be received and respected in countries of Islamic tradition. I ask and I humbly entreat those countries to grant Christians freedom to worship and to practice their faith, in light of the freedom which followers of Islam enjoy in Western countries! Faced with disconcerting episodes of violent fundamentalism, our respect for true followers of Islam should lead us to avoid hateful generalizations, for authentic Islam and the proper reading of the Koran are opposed to every form of violence.”
Lionel: Pope Francis gives the Eucharist to persons in mortal sin and uses casuitry to justify non traditional and heretical actions.He rejects principal Catholic teachings on faith and morals. This is now on public record.He rejects the magisterium of the pre- Council of Trent times.He would consider St. Francis of Assisi and St. Thomas Aquinas fundamentalists.He believes conscience is supreme and there is no  objective reality for him.

Robert Spencer’s positions seem to be at odds with the magisterial teachings on what authentic Islam is and what Catholic are called to do about it (accept immigrants, avoid hateful generalizations, show esteem and respect, etc.) At least in the area of morals, Robert seems to be a dissenter from the papal magisterium.
Lionel: The present magisterium is a break with the  traditional teachings of the Church on morals and faith.
After the World Trade Center bombing in 1993, there was a Joint Statement by Archbishop (later Cardinal) Keeler, then President of the US National Conference of Bishops and Dr. Mahmoud Abu-Saud, then President of the American Muslim Council:
“As the Presidents of two organizations that have been codirecting a national dialogue between Catholics and Muslims for two years, we declare our agreement on general principles to guide discussions of such incidents as the bombing of the World Trade Center in New York. Together we urge all not to impugn whole peoples or their religions because of the despicable acts of some. Aggression and terrorism wherever they occur are to be condemned since they constitute an illegitimate use of force and therefore violate the law of God. This we affirm without qualification. With equally strong resolve we reject any effort to claim a religious inspiration or sanction for such contemptible acts. This misguided contention disfigures religion itself. It is important at this time for us to reaffirm our commitment to one another. A major goal of Christian Muslim dialogue is to eradicate misrepresentations of Islam, and the history of Christian Muslim relations. Another goal is to cooperate in pursuit of common values, in particular, justice, peace, and respect for creation. We are encouraged by the fact that dialogue between Catholics and Muslims is already taking place in several American cities. As the Presidents of the American Muslim Council and of the National Conference of Catholic Bishops we call upon our faithful to come together to dialogue, to pray, and to act in behalf of our common values.”
Lionel: They may reject terrorism and violence as do Catholics however the contemporary magisterium is not affirming the Catholic faith to them.They are not affirming the Catholic Faith on other religions and salvation in accord with Vatican Council II ( Feeneyite) and the pre-Council of Trent magisterium of the Church.
I use this as just one example of thousands that show that mainstream Muslims reject terrorism and violence. Authentic Christians and Muslims reject terrorism and violence and to teach differently is harmful to the common good. It especially hurts our efforts in counter-intelligence and cooperation from many Islamic people and nations who work with us to counter the false, nihilistic ideology and terroristic actions of ISIS, ISIL, Al Qaeda, etc. in fact, Spencer’s interpretation also allows these radical groups to say to potential recruits, mostly disaffected young persons who are susceptible to radicalization, “See, even our most vocal opponents agree with us that our interpretation of Islam is the correct one.”
Lionel: On the other hand there are thousands of Muslims who commit suicide since the Catholic Church has never told them that they are on the way to Hell, without faith and baptism in the Catholic Church.
We can work for peace, as is stated above, but at some time it needs to be said that Vatican Council II indicates all non- Christians are on the way to Hell, unless they convert into the Church, with faith and baptism, since outside the Church there is no known salvation.This is the teaching of the Church( Vatican Council II, Catechism of the Catholic Church 845,846, 1257,Dominus Iesus  20, Evangelii Nuntiandi, Cantate Domino,Council of Florence 1441 etc.
On August 12th, after our discussion, a news report of a speech given by Bishop Marcelo Sánchez Sorondo, president of the Pontifical Academy of Social Sciences written by Hannah Brockhaus entitled “Muslims Who Interpret Quran Peacefully ‘Find a Strong Ally’ in the Church” was published by the Catholic News Agency. Bishop Sanchez’s reflections on Islam are very similar to what I was trying to communicate in my discussions with Robert Spencer. Here is the news report:
A Vatican bishop spoke out last week stressing that while few Muslims are terrorists, there are passages in the Quran advocating violence that can’t be ignored, and must be clarified from within the Muslim community.
“It would be naive to pretend that there are not certain episodes in the Koran and the Hadith that may lend themselves to a violent interpretation,” Bishop Marcelo Sánchez Sorondo, president of the Pontifical Academy of Social Sciences, said Aug. 5.
He added that “how the Muslim community worldwide can give a peaceful hermeneutic to these passages is a task which I imagine will be made more difficult with too much pressure ‘from outside,’” and that thus “I wouldn’t dream of telling Muslims how to interpret their faith.”
“But those who want to work towards that end from within will find a strong ally and friend in the Catholic Church, ready to accompany on the way.”
Bishop Sánchez delivered this reflection during a “Meditation for Peace” hosted by The Art of Living, an India-based Hindu organization.
His speech came just days after Pope Francis on his July 31 return flight from Krakow voiced his belief that it is not right to identify Islam with violence. “This is not right and it is not true,” he said.
In his speech Bishop Sánchez agreed with the Pope, but noted how the “religious-inspired terrorism” of the last few decades has been “propagated by a few individuals who insist that they alone have the correct interpretation of Islam.”
These individuals persist “in the face of the billion other adherents of Islam who testify to a tolerant religion which does not recognize the legitimacy of the actions of these few wicked individuals,” he said.
Bishop Sánchez acknowledged that most Muslims are not guilty of the violence perpetrated “in the name of their religion,” and that Muslims themselves were killed in the July 15 act of terrorism in Nice, when a truck plowed through crowds celebrating Bastille Day, killing 84 people and wounding roughly 50 others.
He also noted how an “overwhelming majority” of the victims of terrorist groups in the Middle East such as the Islamic State are Muslim.
“It therefore falls upon all leaders of moral authority in these times to do all they can to calm an increasingly tense situation – made all the more tense by the actions of the few,” he said.
The bishop quoted a prayer Pope Francis offered July 30 at World Youth Day in Krakow for the conversion of terrorists to the “way of peace and goodness, of respect for the life and dignity of every human being.”
“I think this is also the sincere hope of everybody – of whichever faith tradition,” he said.
In light of continued terrorism around the world, “every single person, irrespective of personal faith, has the responsibility to speak – and to act – with the utmost prudence … Only ever appealing to our neighbor’s most noble sentiments and never to his worst instincts,” Bishop Sánchez said.
He concluded his speech by emphasizing that “what I want to say – and this is my central message for the Meditation for Peace today – is that perhaps it is the case that this generation has been entrusted with the last opportunity of preserving peace throughout our societies…across the European Union and the wider world.”
It is very important for all believers that the authentic teaching of the Church be clear so that we may know the truth and attempt to live it to the full.
Lionel: The ' authentic teaching of the Church' was not made clear.We have an interpretation of Vatican Council II, for example, in which hypothetical cases( LG 16 etc) are not considered hypothetical by explicit in the present times. Then it is concluded that these 'explicit cases'( LG 14, AG 7) are objective exceptions to the old ecclesiology on other religions, based on the thrice defined dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
I submit that there is a serious difference between the repeated magisterial teachings of the Church and the teaching of Robert Spencer in this area. For the sake of all, this situation needs to be clarified.
Lionel: I think there is a serious difference in the interpretation of magisterial documents in the Catholic Church.Msgr. Stuart Swetland, Robert Spencer and Drew Mariani could clarify this issue.
Robert Spencer has in the past refused to accept Vatican Council II ( Feeneyite) which supports the dogma EENS( Feeneyite) now based on Vatican Council II ( Cushingite) Msgr. Stuart Swetland is saying that Spencer is not faithful to the contemporary magisterium.
-Lionel Andrades



Feeneyism: It is the old theology and philosophical reaoning which says there are noknown exceptions past or present, to the dogma EENS.There are no explicit cases to contradict the traditional interpretation of EENS.

Cushingism: It is the new theology and philosophical reasoning, which assumes there are known exceptions, past and present, to the dogma EENS, on the need for all to formally enter the Church.It assumes that the baptism of desire etc are not hypothetical but objectively known.In principle hypothetical cases are objective in the present times.
Baptism of Desire: 
It refers to the hypothetical case of an unknown catechumen who desires the baptism of water but dies before he receives it and is saved. Since this is an invisible case in our reality it is not relevant to the dogma EENS.
Invincible Ignorance: This refers to the hypothetical case of someone allegedly saved without the baptism of water in the Catholic Church, since he was in ignorance.

Council of Florence.One of the three Councils which defined the dogma EENS.It did not mention any exceptions.

Liberal theologians:They reinterpreted the baptism of desire and being saved in invincible ignorance, as objective cases, known in the present times.

Vatican Council II(Cushingite): It refers to the interpretation of Vatican Council II with Cushingism.LG 16, LG 8, UR 3, NA 2 etc refer not to hypothetical but known cases in the present times. So Vatican Council II emerges as a break with the dogma EENS.

Vatican Council II (Feeneyite):
It refers to the interpretation of Vatican Council II with Feeneyism.LG 16, LG 8, UR 3, NA 2 etc refer to hypothetical cases, which are unknown personallyin the present times.So Vatican Council II is not a break with EENS, the Syllabus of Errors, ecumenism of return, the Nicene Creed ( Feeneyite-one baptism),the teaching on the Social Reign of Christ the King over all political legislation and the non separation of Church and State( since all need to convert into the Church to avoid Hell)
Letter of the Holy Office 1949 to the Archbishop of Boston. It assumed hypothetical cases were defacto known in the present times. So it presented the baptism of desire etc as an explicit exception, to the traditional interpretation of the dogma EENS.It censured Fr.Leonard Feeney and the St.Benedict Center.Since they did not assume that the baptism of desire referred to a visible instead of invisible case.The Letter made the baptism of desire etc relevant to EENs.From the second part of this Letter has emerged the New Theology.

Baltimore Catechism. It assumed that the desire for the baptism of an unknown catechumen, who dies before receiving it and was saved, was a baptism like the baptism of water. So it was placed in the Baptism Section of the catechism. In other words it was wrongly assumed that the baptism of desire is visible and repeatable like the baptism of water or that we can administer it like the baptism of water.

Catechism of Pope X. It followed the Baltimore Catechism and placed the baptism of desire in the Baptism Section.

Nicene Creed ( Cushingite) It says 'I believe in one baptism for the forgiveness of sins' and means there are more than three known baptisms. They are water, blood, desire, seeds of the Word etc.

Nicene Creed ( Feeneyite). It says 'I believe in one baptism for the forgiveness of sins and means there is one known baptism the baptism of water.

New Theology: It refers to the new theology in the Catholic Church based on hypothetical cases being objective in the present times.So it eliminates the dogma EENS.With the dogma EENS made obsolete the ecclesiology of the Church changes. There is a new ecclesiology which is a break with Tradition.

Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus ( Cushingite) .It refers to the dogma but with exceptions.All do not need to defacto convert into the Church in the present times, since there are exceptions.

Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus ( Feeneyite).It 
refers to the dogma as it was interpreted over the centuries.There are no known exceptions to all needing to formally enter the Church, with faith and baptism, to avoid Hell.

Catechism of the Catholic Church ( Cushingite).CCC 1257 contradicts the Principle of Non Contraduction. Also CCC 848 is based on the new theology and so is a rupture with the dogma EENS( Feeneyite).

Catechism of the Catholic Church ( Feeneyite).CCC 1257 does not contradict the Principle of Non Contradiction since there are no known exceptions to all needing the baptism of water for salvation. There are no known exceptions, since God is not limited to the Sacraments.
When CCC 846 states all who are saved are saved through Jesus and the Church,CCC 846 does not contradict the dogmatic teaching on all needin to formally enter the Church. CCC 846 does not contradict Ad Gentes 7 which states all need faith and baptism for salvation.

 He affirms Vatican Council II( Feeneyite) and the dogma EENS ( Feeneyite) and , is waiting for the rest of the Church to follow.

John Martignoni: The American Catholic apologist.He says the baptism of desire and being saved in invincible ignorance refer to 'zero cases' in our reality. So they are not exceptions to EENS.
Fr.S.Visintin osb: He is the Dean of Theology at the St.Anselm Pontifical University in Rome.He agrees with Martignoni.


Vatican Council II and the Catechism of the Catholic Church (1995) affirm the Feeneyite interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus

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