Monday, March 27, 2017

The Catholic Church today contradicts the Catholic Church of for example in the 16th century. The error was assuming invisible for us baptism of desire is an exception to the dogma EENS.Pope Benedict confirmed this last March 2016

Bob, Bod and II are NOT exceptions to Baptism by water and are not a sacrament as Baptism of water is BUT they have been taught  
Lionel: Agreed. They are not exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus(EENS).They have been taught  over the centuries, as being hypothetical cases. They have not been considered as being explicit cases. So they are not exceptions.
However the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 considered them as exceptions to the Feeneyite interpretation of the dogma EENS. So the Letter was wrong.Most Catholics follow the 1949 Letter of the Holy Office and so interpret EENS with exceptions.

by the Catholic Church since the  beginining  of time. ALL are Catholics so none of them go against the formula that a person MUST be Catholic in order to enter Heaven.
Lionel: Yes a person must be a Catholic to go to Heaven. Agreed.And the baptism of desire(BOD), baptism of blood(BOB) and Invincible ignorance(I.I) cannot exist without the baptism of water.They are not exceptions now or in the past.

  • “Baptism, the door and foundation of the Sacraments, in fact or at least in desire necessary unto salvation for all, is not validly conferred except through the ablution of true and natural water with the prescribed form of words.” (Canon 737)
    “Those who have died without baptism are not to be given ecclesiastical burial. Catechumens who die without baptism through no fault of their own are to be counted among the baptized.” (Canon 1239) 1917 Code of Canon Law
  • "A person outside the Church by his own fault, and who dies without perfect contrition, will not be saved. But he who finds himself outside without fault of his own, and who lives a good life, can be saved by the love called charity, which unites unto God, and in a spiritual way also to the Church, that is, to the soul of the Church." Pope St. Pius X, Catechism of Christian Doctrine
  • "17 Q: Can the absence of Baptism be supplied in any other way?
    A: The absence of Baptism can be supplied by martyrdom, which is called Baptism of Blood, or by an act of perfect love of God, or of contrition, along with the desire, at least implicit, of Baptism, and this is called Baptism of Desire." Catechism of Pope St. Pius X, The Sacraments - Baptism, Necessity of Baptism and Obligations of the Baptized
  • "The Fathers and theologians frequently divide baptism into three kinds: the baptism of water (aquæ or fluminis), the baptism of desire (flaminis), and the baptism of blood (sanguinis). However, only the first is a real sacrament. The latter two are denominated baptism only analogically, inasmuch as they supply the principal effect of baptism, namely, the grace which remits sins. It is the teaching of the Catholic Church that when the baptism of water becomes a physical or moral impossibility, eternal life may be obtained by the baptism of desire or the baptism of blood" 1917 Catholic Encyclopedia, Baptism.
  • Lionel: BOD,BOB and I.I are not exceptions to the dogma EENS. Every one needs to enter the Church in 2017 to avoid Hell.
  • ____________________

Commentary on the Code:
“The reason for this rule is that they are justly supposed to have met death united to Christ through Baptism of desire.” This is in direct contradiction to what Father Feeney believed to be true.
Lionel: So if there is a baptism of desire without the baptism of water then it is wrong. The baptism of desire must include the baptism of water. Since you have said every one needs the baptism of water in the Catholic Church for salvation and BOD, BOB and I.I are not exceptions.
So the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 was wrong and Fr. Leonard Feeney was correct.

The Catholic Church would NOT have taught that these were included in Baptism for centuries if not true and all three are taught as true and part of dying as a Catholic.
Lionel: The Catholic Church today contradicts the Catholic Church of for example in the 16th century. The error was assuming invisible for us baptism of desire is an exception to the dogma EENS.
Pope Benedict XVI confirmed this last March 2016. He said that EENS was not more like it was in the 16th century.

Saint Felicitas was a catechumen who was arrested with St Perpetua. 

A couple more mentioned here:
The Emperor Valentinian II was on the way to Milan to be baptized when he
was assassinated; St. Ambrose said of him that his desire had been the
means of his cleansing.
Martyrdom for Christ's sake is the baptism of blodd. This the holy
innocents received, and the Church commemorates them as saints. All
unbaptized persons who suffer martyrdom for the Christian faith, for some
act of Christian virtue, or the fulfilment of a Christian duty, also
received the baptism of blood. Witness St. John Baptist; or St.
Emerentiana, who while yet a catechumen, was found by the pagans praying
at St. Agnes' tomb, and was put ton death by them. The Church does not
pray for the unbaptized who suffer death for Christ; for He Himself says,
"He that shall lose his life for Me, shall find it." (Matt. x. 39).
Lionel: BOD, BOB and I.I are not exceptions to EENS you have said.So Valentinian could have been saved if he had an 'invisible baptism with water', as one of the quotes you have sent me mentioned.Do not separate the BOD from the baptism of water.
Yes. St. Emerentiana and St. Victor are two examples. Here are their entries in the Roman Martryology (an extensive, but not exhaustive list of Saints recognized by the Church):
Originally Posted by Roman Martyrology
January 23: At Rome, the holy virgin and martyr Emerentiana. Being yet only a catechumen, she was stoned to death by the Gentiles, whilst praying at the tomb of St. Agnes, her foster-sister.
Originally Posted by Roman Martyrology
April 12: At Braga, in Portugal, St. Victor, martyr, who although only a catechumen, refused to adore an idol, and confessed Jesus Christ with great constancy. After suffering many tortures, he was beheaded, and thus merited to be baptized in his own blood.
Other martyred catechumens are also mentioned, including St. Rhais and St. Hericlides:
Lionel: Yes.You have said that BOB is not an exception to the dogma EENS. So they were saved with also the baptism of water in a manner known to God and unknown to you.
When the Council of Trent refers to the baptism of water and the desire for it, it is not separating the two.The baptism of desire at the supernatural realm would be followed with the baptism of water, it would include the baptism of water.
Originally Posted by Roman Martyrology
June 3: At Alexandria, in the same persecution of Severus, the holy martyrs Plutarch, Serenus, Heraclides, catechumen, Heron, neophyte, another Serenus, Rhais, catechumen, Potamicena and Marcella, her mother.
Finally, there is an unnamed soldier converted by St. Alban when he was escorting St. Alban to his execution that was "baptized in his own blood":
Lionel. Same as above !
-Lionel Andrades

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