JUNE 18, 2014
'Subsistit it'(LG 8) is not a VISIBLE exception to extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
Vatican Council II (LG 8) is not a known exception to extra ecclesiam nulla salus and Tradition.There is no known salvation outside the Church.
@Annie:
"The Council has, therefore, admitted that the Church of Christ is something bigger than the Roman Catholic Church."
Lionel:
Annie in Ad Gentes 7 the Council says all need faith and baptism for salvation. This is also expressed in Lumen Gentium 14.
The Council is affirming extra ecclesiam nulla salus.It is in accord with Fr.Leonard Feeney of Boston.
Annie in Ad Gentes 7 the Council says all need faith and baptism for salvation. This is also expressed in Lumen Gentium 14.
The Council is affirming extra ecclesiam nulla salus.It is in accord with Fr.Leonard Feeney of Boston.
So we should also affirm a Vatican Council II in accord with extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
If LG 8 is interpreted as saying there is salvation outside the Church, it is important to note that these cases are INVISIBLE for us. They are not VISIBLE. So they cannot be exceptions to Ad Gentes 7. There cannot be known salvation outside the Church.
Objectively there is no such case as Viterbo has observed.
There is nothing in the Council which contradicts AG 7 when you are aware of the INVISIBLE-VISIBLE distinction.
Annie:
The 'is' which they turned into 'subsists' fuelled the idea of 'full communion' and 'and partial communion' which cannot be found in the Magisterium prior to VII. I would take a guess that this 'full' and 'partial' innovation is what is at the root of Bergoglio's 'peripheries' business - the sense being that everything is 'Church' - either undiltued or slightly diluted, full or partial. Doesn't really explain his dislike of sphere's and his admiration of polyhedron's however.
Objectively there is no such case as Viterbo has observed.
There is nothing in the Council which contradicts AG 7 when you are aware of the INVISIBLE-VISIBLE distinction.
Annie:
The 'is' which they turned into 'subsists' fuelled the idea of 'full communion' and 'and partial communion' which cannot be found in the Magisterium prior to VII. I would take a guess that this 'full' and 'partial' innovation is what is at the root of Bergoglio's 'peripheries' business - the sense being that everything is 'Church' - either undiltued or slightly diluted, full or partial. Doesn't really explain his dislike of sphere's and his admiration of polyhedron's however.
Lionel:
Either way 'subsistit it' is not a VISIBLE exception to extra ecclesiam nulla salus.This is the MISSING LINKwe have to be aware of it when interpreting Vatican Council II, the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Letter of the Holy Office 1949 to the Archbishop of Boston and some other magisterial documents (Redemptoris Mission, Mystici Corporis etc).
Either way 'subsistit it' is not a VISIBLE exception to extra ecclesiam nulla salus.This is the MISSING LINKwe have to be aware of it when interpreting Vatican Council II, the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Letter of the Holy Office 1949 to the Archbishop of Boston and some other magisterial documents (Redemptoris Mission, Mystici Corporis etc).
-Lionel Andrades
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