Wednesday, July 4, 2018

Repost : UNANSWERED QUESTIONS ON EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS

JUNE 17, 2014


UNANSWERED QUESTIONS ON EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS

 

Lionel Andrades said...

Chrysologos said:
Just over a month ago I thought I had an adequate understanding of 'extra ecclesiam...', and the roles played by baptism of desire and invincible ignorance.

Lionel:
Now you are not sure.
May be the baptism of desire is not an exception to extra ecclesiam nulla salus,after all?
To answer that you would have to define your terms. You would have to clarify if the baptism of desire is explicit for you or implicit for you.
Does CCC mention a visible for us baptism of desire or one which is invisible ?
Your not willing to clarify this.Neither is James,Joseph Shaw or Fr.Finigin and others willing to enter unknown waters.

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You obviously had a bee in your bonnet about these matters, and I endeavoured to discover the nature of both the bee and the bonnet.
Consequently I've spent many an hour perusing the CCC, following up leads, and, as far as possible, checking with original sources. As a result my knowledge has expanded enormously, and that can only be a good thing.
Lionel:
But you still cannot answer these four questions.Let me ask hem again:
1.Is Wikipedia saying for you that Lumen Gentium 16 ( being saved in invincible ignorance) is an exception to Fr.Leonard Feeney ?
2. Is Wikipedia saying for you that LG 16 is explicit and so an exception all needing to convert into the Church in the present times ?
3. Does Wikipedia indicate that all non Catholics in England do not need to enter the Church in 2014 since there are now known exceptions saved in invincible ignorance ?
4. Can the baptism of desire and being saved invincible ignorance be an exception to extra ecclesiam nulla salus is still the fundamental question ?
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Chrysologus:
Thus, it is with some confidence I conclude:
1) The Church's teaching, through its documents and its ministers, is clear and straightforward.
Lionel:
This is vague. It would be precise if you answered so many of the questions I have asked you.

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Chrysologus:
2) On the other hand, your comments on your and other blogs, with their seemingly pointless questions; their fixation with 'exceptions' (or not), and things 'visible' or 'invisible'; all conspire to confuse and befuddle what is otherwise plain to see.
Lionel:
In general Catholics assume there are exceptions to the dogma. This implies that there are VISIBLE cases.I am usually responding to this irrationality.

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3) You consistently avoid addressing coherently the points I put before you, and therefore there is nothing I can usefully further say.
Lionel:
These are some of the many points between us(from above) which have not been answered.
UNANSWERED QUESTIONS
1.
1.Is Wikipedia saying for you that Lumen Gentium 16 ( being saved in invincible ignorance) is an exception to Fr.Leonard Feeney ?
2. Is Wikipedia saying for you that LG 16 is explicit and so an exception all needing to convert into the Church in the present times ?
3. Does Wikipedia indicate that all non Catholics in England do not need to enter the Church in 2014 since there are now known exceptions saved in invincible ignorance ?
4. Can the baptism of desire and being saved invincible ignorance be an exception to extra ecclesiam nulla salus is still the fundamental question ?
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2.
59. The Letter of the Holy Office to the Archbishop of Boston (1949) offers further specifications. “To gain eternal salvation, it is not always required that a person be incorporated in reality (reapse) as a member of the Church, but it is necessary that one belong to it at least in desire and longing (voto et desiderio). It is not always necessary that this desire be explicit as it is with catechumens.
When one is invincibly ignorant, God also accepts an implicit desire, so called because it is contained in the good disposition of soul by which a person wants his or her will to be conformed to God’s will”.- The Hope of Salvation for Infants who die without the being baptized', International Theological Commission,2007
Lionel:
What had the baptism of desire to do with the traditonal interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus by Fr.Leonard Feeney of Boston?
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3.
And then we have Prof. Gavin D'Costa, on the website of the Catholic Bishops Conference of England and Wales inferring that 'a ray of the Truth' and 'seeds of the Word' are VISIBLE for us.This is the NORM in the Catholic Church in England ?
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4.
Lionel:
59. The Letter of the Holy Office to the Archbishop of Boston (1949) offers further specifications. “To gain eternal salvation, it is not always required that a person be incorporated in reality (reapse) as a member of the Church, but it is necessary that one belong to it at least in desire and longing (voto et desiderio). It is not always necessary that this desire be explicit as it is with catechumens.
When one is invincibly ignorant, God also accepts an implicit desire, so called because it is contained in the good disposition of soul by which a person wants his or her will to be conformed to God’s will”.- The Hope of Salvation for Infants who die without the being baptized', International Theological Commission,2007
Here it is again:
“To gain eternal salvation, it is not always required that a person be incorporated in reality (reapse) as a member of the Church, but it is necessary that one belong to it at least in desire and longing (voto et desiderio).
Note :He is mentioning this relative to the literal interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus by Fr.Leonard Feeney.
He is rejecting the literal interpretation, i.e everyone needs to convert into the Church, and he is implying that every one does not need to convert into the Church.
Every one does not need to convert for him since a person can be saved with implcit desire ! Implicit desire which is de facto. Implicit desire (baptism of desire) which is known. It would have to be known for it to be an exception to the literal interpretation of Fr.Leonard Feeney.
Why mention baptism of desire if it is only hypothetical for him ?
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5.
2. From Wikipedia again.
This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and His Church:
"Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience — those too may achieve eternal salvation" (Second Vatican Council, Lumen Gentium, 16).-Wikipedia
Lionel:
Why does Wikipedia cite Lumen Gentium 16 ? Is it implying that those saved in invincible ignorance are visible exceptions to the dogma? These cases are known to us ?
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6.
The exact quote from the Holy Office letter is:
'Therefore, that one may attain eternal salvation, it is not always required that he be incorporated into the Church actually as a member, but it is necessary that at least he be united to her by desire and longing'.
www.ewtn.com/library/curia/cdffeeny.htm
Note that the Holy Office refers to an individual, 'one'.
Lionel:
It refers to an indvidual 'one'.That's my point! So there is one exception to the traditional interpretation of Fr.Leonard Feeney?
Some one known and visible to be one exception to all needing to convert into the Church?
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7.
The dogma said everyone who does not convert is damned.
Here is one quotation from this Wikipedia entry on extra ecclesiam nulla salus. There are also others.
Pope Eugene IV, Cantate Domino (1441): "The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the "eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matthew 25:41), unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church."
So how can Wikipedia now say 'The Roman Catholic Church also teaches that the doctrine does not mean that everyone who is not visibly within the Church is necessarily damned'?
So for Wikpedia there must be an exception/exceptions in the present times,since every one does not need to be visibly in the Church.
An exception ? Do you know any exception in England this year ?
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8.
You write with regard to Fr Finigan, 'when asked if implicit desire ... was implicit or explicit for us, he will not answer'.
This is not true. I refer you to your own blog
 (www.eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2012/05/frtim-finigan-responds-on-extra.html). Among much else, Fr Finigan writes:
I have indeed answered your question (several times now)
Lionel:I don't think he has answered it.You could ask him the two questions I asked Dr.Joseph Shaw and place his answer here. Or invite him here to answer the two questions I asked James.
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9.
In the previous paragraph the Pope wrote,
(7) Outside of the Church, nobody can hope for life or salvation unless he be excused through ignorance beyond his control.
(ibid.)

Lionel:
In principle a person can be saved with the baptism of desire.
De facto every one needs to enter the Church and there are no known exceptions.
You would place that statement in this frame?
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10.
Similarly if you ask me whether I know for certain of any individual on earth or Heaven saved with the baptism of desire or in invincible ignorance, I am not simply going to answer "No", I am going to point out that we do not know for certain of any individual being saved.
Lionel:
Your saying that you cannot see a person now saved in Heaven; saved with the baptism of desire.
This is something obvious for us all.
It is common knowledge that we cannot see the dead.
So why cannot James, Joseph Shaw and Fr.Finigan say this in public ?
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11.
Similarly, no one is denying all need belong to the Church to be saved,
Lionel:
They are all saying that every one in England in 2014 need Catholic Faith and the baptism of water to avoid Hell and there are no exceptions?
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12.
Chrysologus:
For the record, the exact quote from Cardinal Danneels:
Even though it is true that Vatican II is fully rooted in our Catholic tradition, it is equally true that it launched a development and a deepening of that tradition, which here and there shows a discontinuity with past thinking and practice.
(www.rcsouthwark.co.uk/yof_card_danneels_lecture.pdf)
Lionel:
There is no discontinuity with past thinking in Vatican Council II for me.The Council is traditional.
Chrysologos:
Clearly nothing there about doctrinal breaks, no wholesale breaks, and definitely no mention of who is saved and who is not.
Regrettably you continue to muddy the otherwise clear waters of Church teaching, and you sully the good name of excellent bishops and priests by imputing unorthodoxy to their words.
Lionel:
Is Cardinal Daneels saying that every one in England in 2014 need Catholic Faith and the baptism of water to avoid Hell and there are no exceptions? Nostra Aetate is not an exception to extra ecclesiam nulla salus?
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Here are Catholic Religious including an Archbishop who has answered the questions you are avoiding.
 Catholic Religious contradict most Catholic priests and nuns : Nostra Aetate is not an exception to extra ecclesiam nulla salus
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These links could help.

The box of mangos
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2014/01/the-box-of-mangoes.html

Why do you use the words ‘visible’ and ‘invisible’ ?: It is because others are using it unknown to them http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2014/06/why-do-you-use-words-visible-and.html#links
-Lionel Andrades

http://www.lovingit.co.uk/2014/05/blessings.html#comments

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