This is the doctrine the two popes reject : valid Holy Mass but in sacrilege

This is the doctrine that the two popes are rejecting.

1.Nicene Creed.

2.Athanasius Creed.

3.Apostles Creed.

4.Extra ecclesiam nulla salus.

5.Vatican Council II.

6.Catechism of the Catholic Church.

7.Catechism of the Council of Trent and other Catechisms.

The popes and the Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (CDF) may say that the accept all these above doctrines/ Church documents.The  the two popes and Cardinal Ladaria and Archbishop Pozzo affirm all the above it could be wrongly said.

Then I would mention the following points to clarify their position.

1. Are you saying that they believe in one (known, personally seen) baptism for the forgiveness of sin mentioned in the  Nicene Creed ?
 It is only the baptism of water. There are not three or more known baptisms( desire, blood, invincible ignorance) which exclude the baptism of water for the forgiveness of sins?

Lionel: My answer would be there is only one known baptism.It is the baptism of water. There are not three known baptisms. We cannot see the baptism of desire, for example and neither can we give it to any one.So it us un-known.

____________________

2. Are you saying outside the Church there is no salvation ( Athanasius Creed).? Their answer would be outside the Church there is salvation.

Lionel: My answer is outside the Church there is no salvation and this means outside the Church there is no known salvation.

_____________________

3.Does 'the Holy Spirit, the Holy Catholic Church' ( Apostles Creed) teach today that there is known  salvation outside the Church and that we can see and meet someone saved with the baptism of desire(BOD), baptism of blood(BOB) and invincible ignorance(I.I)? So the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus (EENS) today is no more like it was for the missionaries in the 16th century ?

Lionel: BOD, BOB and I.I do not contradict the dogma EENS.The Holy Spirit does not teach error.
For the CDF the dogma EENS is contradicted by BOD,BOB and I.I. EENS is no more like it was for the Magisterium in the 16th century.

_____________________

4.Does everyone need to be a member of the Catholic Church for salvation ? ( Cantate Domino, Council of Florence 1441,Catechism of Pope Pius X,Vatican Council II, Ad Gentes 7).

Lionel: My answer would be YES.

______________________

5.Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC 846-Outside the Church no salvation) and (CCC 1257-The Necessity of Baptism) do not contradict the strict interpretation of the dogma EENS?

Lionel: No they do not contradict the dogma EENS.

______________________

6.The past Catechisms when they mentioned BOD, BOB and I.I were referring to hypothetical and not objective people, invisible and not visible non Catholics saved outside the Church.

Lionel: Yes they were referring to only hypothetical cases.

______________________

7.The Letter of the Holy Office 1949 made an objective mistake when it assumed invisible cases of BOD, BOB and I.I were visible exceptions to EENS?

Lionel : Yes.

_______________________

8.Fr.Leonard Feeney was teaching orthodoxy  on EENS and the Holy Office (CDF) wanted him to say that invisible cases of BOD, BOB and I.I were visible exceptions to traditional EENS.This was heresy.

Lionel: Yes this was heresy.

________________________

9.Cardinal Ladaria made a mistake at the Placuet Deo Press Conference( March 1, 2018) when in response to a question from a lady journalist of the Associated Press, he suggested that Lumen Gentium 8 referred to known non Catholics, saved outside the Catholic Church.So the traditional teaching on EENS ; the Church having the superiority and exclusiveness in salvation was contradicted?

Lionel: Yes. He made a mistake.

_________________________

10.Pope Benedict made a mistake in March 2016 ( Avvenire) when he said that EENS was no  more like it was for the missionaries in the 16th century, since Vatican Council II was a development?

Lionel : Yes he was wrong. Since he interpreted LG 8,  LG 16 etc, in Vatican Council II, irrationally.They were exceptions to EENS for him.In other words they were visible and known people saved outside the Church. 
We know there are no such people.

__________________________

11.The BOD, BOB and I.I refer to invisible people in 2018. But the popes and ecclesiastics assume that these were personally known people saved outside the Church in 1965-2018.

Lionel:They refer to hypothetical and theoretical cases.So the popes and ecclesiastics made a mistake.

__________________________

12.Even if a St.Emerentiana or a St.Victor was allegedly saved outside the Church ( no one could have physically seen them saved without the baptism of water) they cannot be objective exceptions to EENS in 1965-2018?

Lionel: They cannot be objective exceptions to EENS since they do not exist in our reality.They are not here in the present times. A hypothetical,possibility of salvation is not an actual person saved outside the Church in the past times.People who are not there cannot be exceptions to EENS.

_____________________________

13.If BOD,BOB and I.I referred to invisible and personally unknown people then they would not contradict EENS.So all the natives in the Americas before Columbus went there were oriented to Hell. Since the norm for salvation is faith and baptism and not invincible ignorance. Also any case of invincible ignorance would not be an exception to the norm in the Americas, since it would not be known to humans?

Lionel: They were all oriented to Hell with no known exceptions. Since the norm for salvation for all is faith and baptism in the Catholic Church.Invincible ignorance is not an exception.Since there are no known cases of invincible ignorance, to contradict the norm of the Church, taught by the Holy Spirit.

______________________________

14.Vatican Council II supports EENS when it says all need faith and baptism for salvation(AG 7).

Lionel: Yes.

____________________________

15.Vatican Council II indicates most people are oriented to Hell since they die without faith and baptism(AG 7).So there is the need for traditional mission projects knowing that there are no known exceptions to the ordinary means of salvation,which is faith and baptism.
Lionel: Yes. 
_______________________________

My answers show that there  is no rupture between Vatican Council II  and the strict interpretation of the dogma EENS. Similarly the Catechisms are also interpreted with the hermeneutic of continuity.

This would not be true for the CDF. They reject EENS as it was known to the Jesuits in the 16th century.

I do not interpret the Creeds as contradicting themselves.This is an an error of the CDF.

For me the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 is irrational and heretical. However it is acceptable for the two popes and the CDF.

I affirm EENS like the Magisterium and missionaries in the 16th century.The present popes, cardinals and bishops do not do the same.

So for me they are in public heresy and the popes, cardinals and bishops offer Holy Mass in sacrilege. In public they will not rationally affirm Magisterial documents of the Catholic Church-Lionel Andrades