St.Corbinian's Bear:
So, I take it you do not believe in any "exceptions" to EENS. Not by blood, not by desire, not by invincible ignorance.
Lionel:
1.We do not know of any one in 2014 who will go to Heaven without the baptism of water.
2.The Letter of the Holy Office 1949 wrongly inferred that the baptism of desire and being saved in invincible ignorance were exceptions.
Lionel:
1.We do not know of any one in 2014 who will go to Heaven without the baptism of water.
2.The Letter of the Holy Office 1949 wrongly inferred that the baptism of desire and being saved in invincible ignorance were exceptions.
St.Corbinian's Bear:
Better minds than mine have debated this. I would say that there is a Plan A, and many have speculated about a Plan B (and C, etc.) If you're anywhere but in the Ark of the Church, you are in danger, and need to get in.
Lionel:
Only in the Ark of the Church is there salvation in 2014.
Better minds than mine have debated this. I would say that there is a Plan A, and many have speculated about a Plan B (and C, etc.) If you're anywhere but in the Ark of the Church, you are in danger, and need to get in.
Lionel:
Only in the Ark of the Church is there salvation in 2014.
St.Corbinian's Bear:
As for LG, it doesn't speak about EENS at all,
Lionel:
Yes.It does not mention extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
As for LG, it doesn't speak about EENS at all,
Lionel:
Yes.It does not mention extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
St.Corbinian's Bear:
but seems to advocate a creeping boundary of the Church that encompasses Protestants (and everyone else, for that matter, except for lapsed Catholics).
Lionel:
This is an inference.This is inferred by the liberals. The text does not say this.
Unfortunately even traditionalists infer this and so reject Lumen Gentium 8,14,16 and Vatican Council II 2.
but seems to advocate a creeping boundary of the Church that encompasses Protestants (and everyone else, for that matter, except for lapsed Catholics).
Lionel:
This is an inference.This is inferred by the liberals. The text does not say this.
Unfortunately even traditionalists infer this and so reject Lumen Gentium 8,14,16 and Vatican Council II 2.
St.Corbinian's Bear:
I would not look to LG for support for a strict interpretation of EENS!
Lionel:
Lumen Gentium refers to possibilities known only to God. They cannot be known to us humans in the present times. So it must not be inferred that hypothetical cases are visible to us.
St.Corbinian's Bear:
I don't pretend to know the final answer, just that Plan A is get into the Church, and that there have been reasonable theological speculations from ancient times that suggest those as yet unbaptized, such as catechumens and martyrs, or those with invincible ignorance, might be admitted into heaven.
Lionel:
Yes as a possibility( and followed by the baptism of water in a way known only to God). We do not know of any such case in the last 100 years though.So these possibilities are not relevant to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.St.Corbinian's Bear:
But anything other than getting into the Church is risky business, as I have always said.
Lionel:
Yes. I agree.
-Lionel Andrades
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