Sunday, August 1, 2021
Did Pope Francis issue Traditionis Custode by confusing speculative and practical theology in the interpretation of Vatican Council II ? Yes
The present restrictions, in Rome, practically, are not there only for the Latin Mass but also for Mass in Italian. I could cite specific examples when conservative Catholic priests were called up when they interpreted the baptism of desire and invincible ignorance without the common false premise, which is politically approved.
What are their arguments for questioning Benedict XVI’s document?
They are laid out clearly in the accompanying letter. They can also be found on the blog of Andrea Grillo, a lay professor of liturgy at St. Anselm's who has been extremely hostile to Summorum Pontificum. His idea, taken up by the Pope and the crafters of the recent motu proprio, is that the traditional Mass represents a state of doctrine prior to Vatican II while the new Mass represents the doctrine of Vatican II - something we all already knew. Therefore, it was no longer necessary for the traditional Mass to be a right, but only a tolerance, and even then a tolerance only granted to faithful and priests to help them gradually transition to the new Mass.(Emphasis added )
So the main reason is doctrinal?
Yes, and it is very important to say this and to be aware of it because, paradoxically, this is all very providential. It is of course very painful. It will hinder the diffusion of the traditional Mass. It will start new persecutions. But, on the other hand, it puts the finger on what hurts, namely the doctrinal status of Vatican II, which has never been settled.(Emphasis added )
So, the bottom line is that this hatred of the traditional Mass has a doctrinal basis?
Absolutely. It is the hatred of the Tridentine ecclesiology, of all that this Mass represents from the point of view of Eucharistic doctrine as well as the doctrine of the Church.- Italian Bishops and Cardinals were the origin and moving force behind Traditionis Custodes (an Interview with Fr. Claude Barthe) (Emphasis added )
https://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2021/07/italian-bishops-and-cardinals-were.html#more
His idea, taken up by the Pope and the crafters of the recent motu proprio, is that the traditional Mass represents a state of doctrine prior to Vatican II while the new Mass represents the doctrine of Vatican II - something we all already knew.
Lionel
There is a misunderstanding. The liturgy is not responsible for the Tridentine ecclesiology. Since even at the Novus Ordo Mass we can interpret Vatican Council II without confusing LG 8, LG 14, LG 16, UR 3, etc as referring to physically visible cases instead of physically invisible cases. If it is the latter then there are no practical exceptions in 1965-2021 to the past Tridentine exclusivist ecclesiology of the Church.
So the present restrictions, in Rome, practically, are not there only for the Latin Mass but also for Mass in Italian. I could cite specific examples when conservative Catholic priests were called up when they interpreted the baptism of desire and invincible ignorance without the common false premise, which is politically approved.-Lionel Andrades
Marino Restrepo was shown Hell by an angel and the place he would go to in Hell if he died that day
(Time on video 23:40) Marino Restrepo
was shown Hell by an angel and the place
he would go to there would die that
day.Hell is deep.- L.A
In my parish the police decide who should do the Readings in the church at Mass. The priest does the Gospel Reading at Mass in Italian and lay people the First and Second Reading : they also decide to whom the sign of peace should be extended
In my parish the police decide who should do the Radings in the
church. The priest does the Gospel Reading at Mass in Italian and lay people
the First and Second Reading.
Often when there are non Christians present, they are invited up
to do the Readings.
This is also the policy at the nearby church San Giuseppe all Aurelio, Cornelia, managed by the Oblates of St. Joseph. A section of the church has been given to the Orthodox Church, for their religious services on Sundays.At every Mass a police man is present, who is a non Christian, and he is armed.
The police decide at the church Santa Maria di Nazareth,
Casalotti, Boccea, to whom the sign of the peace is to be extended and to who
it is not to be given.The non Christian police also go up to receive the Eucharist at Mass and they are given the Eucharist.
Surreal? This is normal at Mass in Italian even in central Rome.-Lionel Andrades
The red is not an exception to the blue for me but for Pope Benedict and Pope Francis the red is an exception to the blue.They confuse what is invisible as being visible: Pope Francis only permits the Mass to be offered by those priests who interpret the Council not with the rational option but the false premise.It still is, the red is an exception to the blue
When you read Vatican Council II know that the red passages (
which mention hypothetical cases of the baptism of desire and invincible
ignorance) are not exceptions to the blue passages ( which are orthodox and in
harmony with the Athanasius Creed, EENS and Syllabus of Errors of Pope Pius
IX). The red is not an exception to the blue for me but for Pope Benedict and
Pope Francis the red is an exception to the blue.They confuse what is invisible
as being visible.This is a false premise.Then they infer that there are
exceptions for Tradition.This is a false inference.So their conclusion is non
traditional, heretical and schismatic.It’s official and they expect all Catholics
to follow them.It is politically approved by the Left.
It was the same in the Fr. Leonard Feeney case.Pope Pius XII after
World War II and the creation of Israel, allowed the world to think that
unknown cases of the baptism of desire and invincible ignorance were known and
practical exceptions to Feeneyite extra ecclesiam nulla salus. So the
Athanasius Creed was contradicted and made obsolete.The SSPX keeps referring to
Pope Pius XII as ‘ a holy pope’.
Archbishop Lefebvre was silent on the Fr. Feeney case. He interpreted BOD and I.I like Pope Pius XII.
Then he interpreted BOD (LG 14) and I.I(LG 16) like Pope Paul VI and neither of the two of them used the rational premise.A false premise produces a non traditional conclusion, obviously.
Then at the time of Pope John Paul II with Cardinal Ratzinger,Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith(CDF), Archbishop Lefebvre interpreted Vatican Council II with the same false premise, like the pope and the CDF. They did not correct the error.This was the new doctrine of the faith for Cardinal Ratzinger. Instead they excommunicated him. He was correct. Vatican Council II interpreted with the false premise, is heretical and schismatic.But they continued with the false interpretation of the Council instead of the rational option.
Now Pope Francis only permits the Mass to be offered by those priests who interpret the Council not with the rational option but the false premise.It still is, the red is an exception to the blue.-Lionel Andrades
-Lionel Andrades
- Red being an exception to the blue -Vatican Documents (1)
- Red is an exception to the blue-Bologna School/ Fr.John Zuhlsdorf (4)
- Red is not an exception to the blue - Proclamation (2)
- Red is not an exception to the blue - profances Holy Mass (1)
- Red is not an exception to the blue :CCC 846-848 (4)
- Red not an exception to blue mapping (1)
FEBRUARY 9, 2019
JANUARY 28, 2019
In Magisterial documents the red is not an exception to the blue, the red does not contradict the blue : with the blue there is a hermeneutic of continuity with Tradition (16th- century extra ecclesium nulla salus, the Syllabus of Errors, ecumenism of return, past exclusivist ecclesiology etc)
https://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2019/01/in-magisterial-documents-red-is-not.html
FEBRUARY 4, 2019
Nei documenti magistrali il rosso non è un'eccezione al blu, il rosso non contraddice il blu: con il blu c'è un'ermeneutica di continuità con la Tradizione (extra ecclesium nulla salus del 16 ° secolo , Sillabo degli Errori di Pio IX, ecumenismo del ritorno, esclusivista ecclesiologia ecc. )
https://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2019/02/nei-documenti-magistrali-il-rosso-non-e.html
Ad Gentes 7, Vatican Council II
Therefore, all must be converted to Him, made known by the Church's preaching, and all must be incorporated into Him by baptism and into the Church which is His body. For Christ Himself "by stressing in express language the necessity of faith and baptism (cf. Mark 16:16; John 3:5), at the same time confirmed the necessity of the Church, into which men enter by baptism, as by a door. Therefore those men cannot be saved, who though aware that God, through Jesus Christ founded the Church as something necessary, still do not wish to enter into it, or to persevere in it." Therefore though God in ways known to Himself can lead those inculpably ignorant of the Gospel to find that faith without which it is impossible to please Him...- Ad Gentes 7. Vatican Council II
14. This Sacred Council wishes to turn its attention firstly to the Catholic faithful. Basing itself upon Sacred Scripture and Tradition, it teaches that the Church, now sojourning on earth as an exile, is necessary for salvation. Christ, present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation. In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism(124) and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church. Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.
They are fully incorporated in the society of the Church who, possessing the Spirit of Christ accept her entire system and all the means of salvation given to her, and are united with her as part of her visible bodily structure and through her with Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. The bonds which bind men to the Church in a visible way are profession of faith, the sacraments, and ecclesiastical government and communion. He is not saved, however, who, though part of the body of the Church, does not persevere in charity. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but, as it were, only in a "bodily" manner and not "in his heart."(12*) All the Church's children should remember that their exalted status is to be attributed not to their own merits but to the special grace of Christ. If they fail moreover to respond to that grace in thought, word and deed, not only shall they not be saved but they will be the more severely judged.(13*)
Catechumens who, moved by the Holy Spirit, seek with explicit intention to be incorporated into the Church are by that very intention joined with her. With love and solicitude Mother Church already embraces them as her own.- Lumen Gentium 14, Vatican Council II
Catechism of the Catholic Church 846-848
"Outside the Church there is no salvation" 846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
- Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.
- Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.
-Catechism of the Catholic Church 846-848
DOMINUS IESUS
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Now, among those things which the Church has always preached and will never cease to preach is contained also that infallible statement by which we are taught that there
is no salvation outside the Church.
However, this dogma must be understood in that sense in which the Church herself understands it. For, it was not to private judgments that Our Savior gave for explanation those things that are contained in the deposit of faith, but to the teaching authority of the Church...
which is the Church, and to remain united to Christ and to His Vicar, through whom He Himself in a visible manner governs the Church on earth...
Therefore, no one will be saved who, knowing the Church to have been divinely established by Christ, nevertheless refuses to submit to the Church or withholds obedience from the Roman Pontiff, the Vicar of Christ on earth.
Not only did the Savior command that all nations should enter the Church, but He also decreed the Church to be a means of salvation without which no one can enter the kingdom of eternal glory.
In His infinite mercy God has willed that the effects,necessary for one to be saved, of those helps to salvation which are directed toward man's final end, not by intrinsic
necessity, but only by divine institution, can also be obtained in certain circumstances when those helps are used only in desire and longing. This we see clearly stated in the Sacred Council of Trent, both in reference to the sacrament of regeneration and in reference to the sacrament of penance (, nn. 797, 807).
However, this desire need not always be explicit,as it is in catechumens; but when a person is involved in invincible ignorance God accepts also an implicit desire, so called because it is included in that good disposition of soul whereby a person wishes his will to be conformed to the will of God.