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When did this go into effect?
Lionel: During the time of Jesus (John 3:5,Mk:16:16)
Easter Sunday after the Harrowing of Hell?
Immediately after the miracle of Pentecost?
Think about the implications of this- the same implications the Church had to consider when the Orient and the New World were found/contacted.
IOW, the old devout Jew living in Athens, never heard of Jesus, dies the day after Pentecost and spends eternity in Hell, because EENS?
Lionel: If he has never heard of Jesus and is saved it is because Jesus sent a preacher to him and had him baptized ( St.Thomas Aquinas) or that he died and returned to be baptised with water (St.Francis Xavier etc).
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Anyway, this devout Jew is not an exception to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.He is not even relevant. Since he is not known to us to be an explicit exception to all needing the baptism of water on earth for salvation.
In 2014 we cannot know an old devout Jew who has been saved without the baptism of water.
Never gotten a good answer on that one.
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Lionel:Tantamergo(Dallas blog) assumes that those who are saved with the baptism of desire or baptism of blood in the present times (2013-2104) are visible in Heaven,Or, that they are explicit for us in some way, to be visible exceptions to all needing the baptism of water for salvation.
This was the error of Letter of the Holy Office 1949. This is Cushingism. It is with Cushingism that the Dallas blog otherwise, also interprets Vatican Council II and so complains about the Council.
There is a choice for the interpretation but he is not aware of it.
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Lionel:
Correct! And the Church Councils do not state that there are known exceptions. This was the yarn of the Americans in the Archdiocese of Boston and they were not corrected by the Holy Office in 1949.So they carried over the confusion into Vatican Council II.
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Lionel:
Tantamergo gets mad at the doctor!
Even the doctor like other traditionalists knows something is wrong; the dogma is being contradicted but he does not know the precise reason.He is not aware of the subtle premise they are both using.
Tantamergo will soon close comments and even block mine.
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with the many doctrinal statements to the effect that baptism is of water only. Pope Eugene especially seems to directly condemn the belief in baptism of blood. The belief that there are three baptisms, or three forms of baptism, appears to have been popularized in catechisms like the Baltimore; as far as I can tell it has no roots in any magisterial statement.
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Lionel:
The baptism of desire or blood can be harmonized with the Feeneyite interpretation when it is understood that these cases are implicit for us, they are invisible for us. So they can be accepted only in principle and not defacto ( in reality). They are only possibilities known to God and they are not exceptions to the dogma.
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Lionel:
Neither did Augustine or St. John Chrysostom say that the baptism of blood or desire is physically visible to us to be an exception to the dogma.This is a made- in- America theory.
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Lionel:
Water baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation is the teaching of the Church Fathers and the Council of Trent.
When the Letter of the Holy Office 1949implies that the baptism of desire and being saved in invincible ignorance are explicitand so are exceptions to extra ecclesiam nulla salus then this is heresy.The text of the Letter actually says that not every one needs to be an explicit member of the Catholic Church.
Therefore, that one may obtain eternal salvation, it is not always required that he be incorporated into the Church actually as a member,...-Letter of the Holy Office 1949
Defacto, ever one is required to be incorporated into the Church actually as a member...!
If one is not aware of this point there can be a heretical interpretation of Vatican Council II and the Catechism of the Catholic Church.-Lionel Andrades
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Sorry comments are closed for this entry
http://veneremurcernui.wordpress.com/2013/07/16/some-key-magisterial-pronouncements-on-extra-ecclesiam-nulla-salus-and-a-question/
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2014/10/dallas-blog-has-difficulty-with-extra.html
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