If you are physically not present at the bus stop you are not a passenger on the bus.You are not there.
The baptism of desire, baptism of blood and invincible ignorance are 'zero cases' in our reality says the apologist John Martignoni. They are not there.
The baptism of desire and invincible ignorance and the baptism of blood are not exceptions for extra ecclesiam nulla salus wrote Bishop Thomas E. Gullickson, on his blog in answer to a question.
Catholic priests in Rome have confirmed that the baptism of desire was never an exception to Feeneyite EENS. -Lionel Andrades
DECEMBER 17, 2020
According to Archbishop Thomas Gullickson there are no cases of the baptism of desire, baptism of blood and invincible ignorance in our reality and so they are not objective exceptions to extra ecclesiam nulla salus. The Amercian Archbishop is not using the false premise
According to Archbishop Thomas Gullickson there are no cases of the baptism of desire, baptism of blood and invincible ignorance in our reality and so they are not objective exceptions to extra ecclesiam nulla salus. The Amercian Archbishop is not using the false premise. - Lionel Andrades
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SATURDAY, JANUARY 14, 2017The two popes have got it wrong while an American archbishop and an Italian Vice Rector and professor of theology have got it correct.Pope Francis and Pope Benedict are fallibly rejecting an infallible teaching by using an irrational premise while Bishop Thomas E.Gullickson and Fr. Stefano Visintin osb have detected the irrational premise.1The two popes still use the irrational premise and so Vatican Council II (Cushingite) is a rupture with Tradition.They are objectively wrong when they assume that Lumen Gentium 16 etc refers to personally known cases.So there is rupture with the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus as it was known, for example, to the 16th century missionaries.
The two popes would also contradict the apologist John Martignoni and many Catholic priests in Rome.
1
Archbishop Thomas E.Gullickson the Nuncio to Ukraine has answered the two questions on the Catholic Faith on his blog Deo Volente Ex Anima.
2.Dear Archbishop Thomas Gullickson,There are three types of baptism water, desire and blood.You would agree that desire and blood are graces of God and are known only to God. We do not know anyone on earth saved with the baptism of desire or blood in 2012. So while in principle we accept the baptism of desire and blood we know they are not visible and repeatable as the baptism of water.So I come back to my question:1. Do we know in the year 2012 any one saved in invincible ignorance, the baptism of desire, a good conscience, seeds of the word (AG 11), imperfect communion with the Church(UR) ?Lionel: The answer would be no we do not? Since these cases are known only to God.2. If we do not know any of these cases in 2012 can they be considered exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus and the Syllabus of Errors?Lionel: So if we do not personally know any of these cases can they be considered de facto (explicit ) exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus?In ChristLionelThomas E. Gullickson November 19, 2012 10:39 AMLionel, Thank you!To my mind your analysis is air tight. How can we know what is known to God alone? Our point of departure is Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus Est. Everything beyond baptism by water and the word is caught up in the mystery of Divine Providence and God's infinite mercy."Imperfect communion" is ecclesiological terminology which says nothing about the eternal salvation of an individual soul. Invincible ignorance goes well for matters of conscience and moral culpability, but otherwise I'd like to think that many people around the world A.D. find themselves in the same situation as people B.C. that is, with no possibility to know Christ. We think of St. Francis Xavier wanting to roust out of the universities of Europe as many as possible for the mission in India or of his urgency to reach China.Simply said, anyone who claims that in 2012 we don't stand in continuity with the great tradition of the Church or that for some reason we are less anxious for souls today, is simply spinning and has not understood the thrust of Vatican II.
NOVEMBER 19, 2012
Archbishop Thomas E.Gullickson has said that the Society of St.Pius X must know that adherence to Vatican Council II and the Catechism does not put them at odds with Tradition.
-Lionel AndradesDear Archbishop Thomas E. GullicksonThank you for your answer!We have two interpretations of Vatican Council II.A. We do not know in the year 2012 any one saved in invincible ignorance, the baptism of desire, a good conscience, seeds of the word, imperfect communtion with the Church etc and Vatican Council II does not contradict Tradition.B.We do know in the year 2012 persons saved in invincible ignorance, the baptism of desie, a good conscience, seeds of the word, imperfect communtion with the Church etc and Vatican Council II does contradict Tradition.B is obviously irrational, since we cannot see the deaceased on earth.It is also non traditional.So the SSPX could choose interpretation A which is in keeping with their position on other religions ?When they say they want to continue criticizing the Council they could mean they want to criticize interpretation B.Similarly when Arcbishop Augustine Di Noia says the SSPX has to accept Vatican Council II's teaching on the Jews ( and other religions) he is referring to interpretation B.The SSPX could still hold the traditional teaching on Jews and other non Catholics according to Vatican Council II with interpretation A?In ChristLionelRepliesThomas E. GullicksonNovember 19, 2012 12:01 PMLionel,The leaders of SSPX are smarter than I am. They have to know that adherence to the Council and the Catechism does not put them at odds with what the Church has taught always and everywhere. I do not think that the last word has been said on living and dealing with the tension between zeal for souls and respect for those outside the only communion with the Church which I can know, the visible one.
Implicit intention, invincible ignorance and a good conscience (LG 16) in Vatican Council II do not contradict extra ecclesiam nulla salus –John Martigioni
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2012/11/implicit-intention-invincible-ignorance.html#links
Repost : Archbishop Thomas E.Gullickson says Vatican Council II does not contradict the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus and the Syllabus of Errors
NOVEMBER 19, 2012
Dear Archbishop Thomas Gullickson,There are three types of baptism water, desire and blood.You would agree that desire and blood are graces of God and are known only to God. We do not know anyone on earth saved with the baptism of desire or blood in 2012. So while in principle we accept the baptism of desire and blood we know they are not visible and repeatable as the baptism of water.So I come back to my question:1. Do we know in the year 2012 any one saved in invincible ignorance, the baptism of desire, a good conscience, seeds of the word (AG 11), imperfect communion with the Church(UR) ?Lionel: The answer would be no we do not? Since these cases are known only to God.2. If we do not know any of these cases in 2012 can they be considered exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus and the Syllabus of Errors?Lionel: So if we do not personally know any of these cases can they be considered de facto (explicit ) exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus?In ChristLionel
Thomas E. GullicksonNovember 19, 2012 10:39 AMLionel, Thank you!To my mind your analysis is air tight. How can we know what is known to God alone? Our point of departure is Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus Est. Everything beyond baptism by water and the word is caught up in the mystery of Divine Providence and God's infinite mercy."Imperfect communion" is ecclesiological terminology which says nothing about the eternal salvation of an individual soul. Invincible ignorance goes well for matters of conscience and moral culpability, but otherwise I'd like to think that many people around the world A.D. find themselves in the same situation as people B.C. that is, with no possibility to know Christ. We think of St. Francis Xavier wanting to roust out of the universities of Europe as many as possible for the mission in India or of his urgency to reach China.Simply said, anyone who claims that in 2012 we don't stand in continuity with the great tradition of the Church or that for some reason we are less anxious for souls today, is simply spinning and has not understood the thrust of Vatican II.
http://deovolenteexanimo.blogspot.it/2012/11/a-little-adjunct-to-yesterdays-post.html?showComment=1353318215335
Archbishop Thomas E.Gullickson says Vatican Council II does not contradict the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus and the Syllabus of Errors
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2012/11/archbishop-thomas-egullickson-says.html#links
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2012/11/archbishop-thomas-egullickson-says.html#links
DEAN OF THEOLOGY AT ST. ANSELM SAYS THERE ARE NO KNOWN EXCEPTIONS TO THE DOGMA EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUShttp://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2013/10/dean-of-theology-at-st-anselm-says.html#links
CANTATE DOMINO, COUNCIL OF FLORENCE ON EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS IS DE FIDE AND NOT CONTRADICTED BY VATICAN COUNCIL II- Fr. Nevus Marcello O.PBRAZILIAN PRIEST SAYS VATICAN COUNCIL II DOES NOT CONTRADICT DOGMA EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS
Catholic religious contradict Bishop Fellay : Nostra Aetate is not an exception to extra ecclesiam nulla salus
I follow the Catechism of Trent in agreement with Vatican Council II and the strict interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus
Archbishop Thomas E.Gulllickson, the Apostolic Nuncio to Switzerland and Liechtenstein contradicts Archbishops Morandi and Di Noia, Secretaries at the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith(CDF).
Brother Andre Marie MICM, in his correspondence with the CDF in 2016 has indicated that there are no known cases of BOD, BOB and I.I in our reality,and that they would be known only to God.Since I.I, BOB and BOD are not exceptions to EENS for him he is saying that in Heaven there are only Catholics.
SEPTEMBER 29, 2018
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The Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith(CDF) does not affirm the strict interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus (EENS) in harmony with Vatican Council II. He is holding doctrinal talks with the Society of St. Pius X(SSPX) when he should be asked to recant or resign
https://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2018/12/the-prefect-of-congregation-for.html
DECEMBER 19, 2018
The secret Vatican-SSPX doctrinal talks are not being made public, even though both sides claim to be Catholic.Cardinal Ladaria uses an irrationality to interpret Vatican Council II as a rupture with EENS.So deception is in his interest https://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2018/12/the-secret-vatican-sspx-doctrinal-talks.html
DECEMBER 13, 2018
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AUGUST 18, 2018
Placuit Deo promotes an ecumenical Jesus and not Jesus according to the traditional teachings of the Catholic Church,which did not separate Jesus from faith and baptism in the Church for salvation : Sandro Magister and Edward Pentin did not know http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2018/08/placuit-deo-promotes-ecumenical-jesus.html
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AUGUST 18, 2018
Placuit Deo promotes an ecumenical Jesus and not Jesus according to the traditional teachings of the Catholic Church,which did not separate Jesus from faith and baptism in the Church for salvation : Sandro Magister and Edward Pentin did not know http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2018/08/placuit-deo-promotes-ecumenical-jesus.html
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DECEMBER 17, 2020
According to John Martignoni, Catholic apologist at EWTN, the baptism of desire, baptism of blood and invincible ignorance, are 'zero cases'. So they cannot be exceptions to extra ecclesiam nulla salus (EENS).
According to John Martignoni, Catholic apologist at EWTN, the baptism of desire, baptism of blood and invincible ignorance, are 'zero cases'. So they cannot be exceptions to extra ecclesiam nulla salus (EENS).
Martignoni is not using the false premise of the Lefebvrists, liberals and present two popes.- Lionel Andrades
According to John Martignoni, Catholic apologist at EWTN, the baptism of desire, baptism of blood and invincible ignorance, are 'zero cases'. So they cannot be exceptions to extra ecclesiam nulla salus (EENS).
Martignoni is not using the false premise of the Lefebvrists, liberals and present two popes.- Lionel Andrades
APRIL 7, 2019
Dis Jesus establish a Church that teaches error, yes or no? Jesus founded one Church : yes or no ? - John Martignoni
JANUARY 22, 2015
And I feel you are saying only Catholics are truly saved....
paulasusan@ffc1b800f8aa43e I feel as though you are bashing Christians who are not Catholic...
John Martignoni@JohnMartignoni By taping a television series for EWTN? You'll have to be more specific about your allegations.paulasusan@ffc1b800f8aa43e I listened to all your downloads And I feel you are saying only Catholics are truly saved....I am listening to them again..
paulasusan@ffc1b800f8aa43e sounds as if you are saying only Catholics are going to Heaven...
John Martignoni@JohnMartignoni Since I have never said that only Catholics are going to Heaven, you'll have to be more specific as to why you heard that?
John Martignoni@JohnMartignoni I never say who goes to Heaven and who doesn't - not my job. My arguments deal with truth - who has it, who doesn't.paulasusan@ffc1b800f8aa43e
Basically by saying Catholics have the truth, then you are saying Protestants aren't or couldn't be saved....John Martignoni@JohnMartignoni Let me ask you a series of questions to explain what I teach: Did Jesus establish a church that teaches error, yes or no?John Martignoni@JohnMartignoni I agree. To continue these questions (as way of explanation for what I teach) Jesus founded one church: yes or no?
paulasusan@ffc1b800f8aa43e I can't answer that at the moment...
paulasusan
MONDAY, NOVEMBER 12, 2012
SSPX THE ONLY WAY OUT NOW!
Bishop Bernard Fellay please announce that John Martignoni who has a regular apologetics program on EWTN says Vatican Council II does not contradict the dogma on salvation or the Syllabus of Errors.Ask the Magisterium to comment on this before you give a final decision.
It means there can only be one rational interpretation of Vatican Council II.Make sure the mainstream media knows what you are saying and reports it.
This will cause an international storm and you and John Martigioni will be at the centre of it. They will accuse you of bringing down, rationally, the liberal idols of Vatican Council II.
Bishop Bernard Fellay has said there are many interpretations of Vatican Council II but has not provided any apologetics for a traditional interpretation and neither has the Vatican. John Martignoni has given us an apologetics for Vatican Council II which is rational, traditional and simple.
Bishop Fellay needs a mechanism, something concrete, to get out of this crisis and he has it now.
If the Magisterium says the SSPX can affirm Vatican Council II in agreement with extra ecclesiam nulla salus and the Syllabus of Errors, the SSPX avoids excommunication.
The SSPX needs to make an announcement in public and ask the Magisterium to define their terms precisely.
Ask the Archbishops at the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith to issue a clarification in public on this interpertation of Vatican Council II. If they agree, they could be saying that Vatican Council II agrees with the SSPX position on other religions. If they do not agree with this interpretation they cannot fault the SSPX, for denying Vatican Council II. The SSPX would not be denying the Council but only an interpretation of the Council.
Neither can the Magisterium say that the Holy Spirit wants the SSPX to accept the visible-dead-saved interpretation of Vatican Council II.
John Martignoni says 'zero cases of something are not exceptions'. So LG 16, AG 11,LG 8 etc are not exceptions to Tradition.
Here is a potential Press Release-Lionel Andrades
PRESS RELEASE
The Society of St.Pius X (SSPX) welcomes the statement of the well known American apologist John Martignoni which says Vatican Council II does not contradict the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus or the Syllabus of Errors.
The SSPX appeals to the Vatican to review John Martignoni's statement and announce if it is acceptable to them.
John Martignoni, a non Traditionalist, has said 'Zero cases of something are not exceptions'.So those saved with the baptism of desire, invincible ignorance, a good conscience, seeds of the word, imperfect communion with the Church etc are not exceptions to the dogma on salvation or the Syllabus of Errors.
This would mean that Vatican Council II (AG 7,LG 14) is in agreement with the SSPX position on other religions and ecumenism while LG 16, LG 8,AG 11 etc do not contradict AG 7 and LG 14.This has a direct bearing on the SSPX position on religious liberty.
CCC 846 with the right interpretation affirms the dogma. CCC 846 cites AG 7 and mentions all who are saved are saved through Jesus and the Church. So it does not contradict AG 7 which says all need to enter the Church 'as through a door'(AG 7) and that all need 'faith and baptism' for salvation.(AG 7).
All on earth need faith and baptism for salvation and it will be God who will judge who knows and who does not know.
Similarly CCC 1257 says the Church knows of no means to eternal beatitude other than the baptism of water (given to adults with Catholic Faith) and God is not restricted to the Sacraments.This means these exceptional cases( not restricted to the Sacraments) are known to God only and so do not contradict the teaching that faith and baptism are needed for all on earth for salvation. The SSPX-Martigioni position is in agreement with Vatican Council II , the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Dominus Iesus 20 and the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
The Vatican's formal response to Martignoni's statement is awaited.(by Lionel Andrades for the Society of St.Pius X)
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Update Jan 15,2015:
There was no response from the Vatican.
Many more of these reports were posted and sent to them.They act as if this problem does not exist.
They want the SSPX and the Franciscans of the Immaculate to interpret Vatican Council II with this irrationality.
This is also the official policy of EWTN and the National Catholic Register. Both are situated in Alabama,USA. There has been no comment on this issue also from the Bishop of Birmingham, Alabama,Bishop Robert J.Baker.Nor have there been further comments from John Martigioni.
Since then Dean of Theology at the University of St.Anselm, Rome has agreed with John Martigioni's statement.
-Lionel Andrades
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Update Jan 15,2015:
There was no response from the Vatican.
Many more of these reports were posted and sent to them.They act as if this problem does not exist.
They want the SSPX and the Franciscans of the Immaculate to interpret Vatican Council II with this irrationality.
This is also the official policy of EWTN and the National Catholic Register. Both are situated in Alabama,USA. There has been no comment on this issue also from the Bishop of Birmingham, Alabama,Bishop Robert J.Baker.Nor have there been further comments from John Martigioni.
Since then Dean of Theology at the University of St.Anselm, Rome has agreed with John Martigioni's statement.
-Lionel Andrades
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