Bishop Kevin C.Rhoades, the bishop of Fort Wayne Bend, Texas, USA and Aaron Seng, founder of Tradivox, interpret the Catechisms with ‘the red being an exception for the blue’ while for me ‘the red is not an exception for the blue’. They interpret the Catechisms irrationally. I choose to be rational and traditional. They choose irrational Cushingism. I choose rational Feeneyism.With a false premise and inference they produce a non traditional conclusion. With a rational premise and inference I go back to the old theology and traditional ecclesiology. - Lionel Andrades
Aaron Seng is the president of Tradivox and general editor of the Catholic Catechism Index, a twenty-volume collection of traditional Catholic catechisms published by Sophia Institute Press.
I am in harmony with the Magisterium of the Apostles, Church Fathers and those of the Middle Ages. They do not have continuity with the Magisterium over the centuries before 1949.
AUGUST 30, 2024
The Catechism of the Catholic Church is Feeneyite . It must not be interpreted with irrational Cushingism for political reasons
III. THE CHURCH IS CATHOLIC ⇡
The Church and non-Christians ⇡
841
The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."330 (Lionel : Hypothetically a Muslim can be saved. In reality we cannot know of any such case. So CCC 841 does not contradict the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus and neither CCC 845-846 ( Outside the Church there is no salvation)
330.
LG 16; cf. NA 3.
360
842
The Church's bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race:All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city...331(Lionel: Yes salvation is open to all in general but to receive this salvation all need to enter the Catholic Church ( CCC 845-846, Dominus Iesus 20 , Ad Gentes 7 etc).
331.
NA 1.
28
856
843
The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."332 ( Lionel: Yes. For salvation they must accept Jesus in the Catholic Church.( Ad Gentes 7, CCC 845-846 etc). Outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation.
332.
LG 16; cf. NA 2; EN 53.
844
In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.333
333.
LG 16; cf. Rom 1:21, 25.
1219
30
953
845
To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son's Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is "the world reconciled." She is that bark which "in the full sail of the Lord's cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world." According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah's ark, which alone saves from the flood.334 (Lionel: CCC 845 is saying outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation)
334.
St. Augustine, Serm. 96,7,9:PL 38,588; St. Ambrose, De virg. 18 118:PL 16,297B; cf. already 1 Pet 3:20-21.
"Outside the Church there is no salvation" ⇡
1257
161
846
How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336 (Lionel: faith and baptism are necessary for salvation, membership in the Catholic Church with faith and baptism are necessary for salvation. In Heaven there are only Catholics. They are there with faith and baptism and without mortal sin on their soul. Outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation ( Council of Florence 1442 etc)
335.
Cf. Cyprian, Ep. 73.21:PL 3,1169; De unit.:PL 4,509-536.
336.
LG 14; cf. Mk 16:16; Jn 3:5.
847
This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience — those too may achieve eternal salvation.337 (Lionel : Those who do not know Christ and His Church and yet are saved are hypothetical cases. They are invisible people in 2024. So they are not practical exceptions for the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus ( Fourth Lateran Council etc or CCC 845-846 or Ad Gentes 7 ( all need faith and baptism for salvation).
337.
LG 16; cf. DS 3866-3872.
1260
848
"Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338(Lionel: Those who are saved in invincibile ignorance are once again, hypothetical cases only. We cannot meet or see someone saved in ignorance. This can only be known to God. So being saved in ignorance is not an objective exception for the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus or CCC 845-846).The Catechism of the Catholic Church supports Feeneyite extra ecclesiam nulla salus.The Catechism is in harmony with the Catechisms of Trent, Baltimore, Pius X etc
338.
AG 7; cf. Heb 11:6; 1 Cor 9:16.
AUGUST 30, 2024
For Aaron Seng and Tradivox, the passages in red contradict the passages in blue. But for me they do not. For me the passages in red are hypothetical cases. They are invisible people in 2024.
"Outside the Church there is no salvation"
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.
848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."
-Catechism of the Catholic Church 846-848
For Aaron Seng and Tradivox, the passages in red contradict the passages in blue. But for me they do not. For me the passages in red are hypothetical cases. They are invisible people in 2024.
But for Aaron and the traditionalists and liberals in general, the passages in red are non hypothetical cases. They would have to objective and known non Catholics saved outside the Catholic Church for them to be exceptions for the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus and the orthodox passages in blue. An invisible person cannot be an exception. Someone has to be there in our reality, he has to be present to be an exception. - Lionel Andrades
https://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2024/08/for-aaron-seng-and-tradivox-passages-in.html
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AUGUST 30, 2024
Catechism of the Pope Pius X : the red is not an exception for the blue
23 Q. In what does the Body of the Church consist?
A. The Body of the Church consists in her external and visible aspect, that is, in the association of her members, in her worship, in her teaching-power and in her external rule and government.
24 Q. To be saved, is it enough to be any sort of member of the Catholic Church?
A. No, to be saved it is not enough to be any sort of member of the Catholic Church; it is necessary to be a living member.
25 Q. Who are the living members of the Church?
A. The living members of the Church are the just, and the just alone, that is, those who are actually in the grace of God.
27 Q. Can one be saved outside the Catholic, Apostolic and Roman Church?
A. No, no one can be saved outside the Catholic, Apostolic Roman Church, just as no one could be saved from the flood outside the Ark of Noah, which was a figure of the Church.
29 Q. But if a man through no fault of his own is outside the Church, can he be saved?
A. If he is outside the Church through no fault of his, that is, if he is in good faith, and if he has received Baptism, or at least has the implicit desire of Baptism; and if, moreover, he sincerely seeks the truth and does God's will as best he can such a man is indeed separated from the body of the Church, but is united to the soul of the Church and consequently is on the way of salvation
11 Q. Who are they who are outside the true Church?
A. Outside the true Church are: Infidels, Jews, heretics, apostates, schismatics, and the excommunicated.
12 Q. Who are infidels?
A. Infidels are those who have not been baptised and do not believe in Jesus Christ, because they either believe in and worship false gods as idolaters do, or though admitting one true God, they do not believe in the Messiah, neither as already come in the Person of Jesus Christ, nor as to come; for instance, Mohammedans and the like.
13 Q. Who are the Jews?
A. The Jews are those who profess the Law of Moses; have not received baptism; and do not believe in Jesus Christ.
14 Q. Who are heretics?
A. Heretics are those of the baptised who obstinately refuse to believe some truth revealed by God and taught as an article of faith by the Catholic Church; for example, the Arians, the Nestorians and the various sects of Protestants.
Necessity of Baptism and Obligations of the Baptised
16 Q. Is Baptism necessary to salvation?
A. Baptism is absolutely necessary to salvation, for our Lord has expressly said: "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God."
17 Q. Can the absence of Baptism be supplied in any other way?
A. The absence of Baptism can be supplied by martyrdom, which is called Baptism of Blood, or by an act of perfect love of God, or of contrition, along with the desire, at least implicit, of Baptism, and this is called Baptism of Desire.
18 Q. To what is the person baptised bound?
A. The person baptised is bound to always profess the faith and observe the Law of Jesus Christ and of His Church.
https://www.ewtn.com/catholicism/library/catechism-of-st-pius-x-1286
In the Catechism of Pope St. Pius X the passages in red are hypothetical and so are not practical exceptions for the passages in blue which are orthodox and support the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus, Ad Gentes 7 in Vatican Council II and the Catechism of the Catholic Church 845-846.
Aaron Seng at Tradivox and Peter Kwasniewski at Whispers of Restoration would be wrongly interpreting the red as being an exception for the blue. So the conclusion is non traditional, irrational and heretical and schismatic.
- Lionel Andrades
https://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2024/08/23-q.html
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