Thursday, September 12, 2024

John Henry Westen has not dealt with the issue of Vatican Council II, irrational and rational, inspite of so many reminders.


From Life Site News


OPINION

In a recent article I summarized a number of arguments that lead to the conclusion that Francis does not hold the office of pope.

Lionel : John Henry Westen has not dealt with the issue of Vatican Council II, irrational and rational, inspite of so many reminders.Pope Francis justifies his actions with Vatican Council II, ir-rational which obviously creates a break with Tradition. It makes the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus, the Athanasius Creed and the Syllabus of Errors obsolete. So if the exclusivist ecclesiology can be changed by Vatican Council II, then Pope Francis reasons, this is the action of the Holy Spirit. It is a new revelation in the Church. So faith and morals are open to change, for him. So there is a new moral theology, new ecumenism, new evangelization, new ecclesiology etc.The conservatives support this reasoning, though un-popular.Here lies the problem. No one is asking Pope Francis to interpret Vatican Council II rationally and morally. Why ? 

In a second article, I outlined the argument from public heresy and membership of the Church in more detail. 

Lionel. Vatican Council II irrational produces heresy and schism. The conservatives are interpreting the Council irrationally like Pope Francis.

In a third article, I responded to the claim that we can attain certainty that Francis is the pope because he possesses the “universal and peaceful adherence” of the Church.  

Lionel. With Vatican Council II irrational neither is John Henry Westen able to claim with certainty that he is a member of the Church. The same accusation he makes against the pope can be made against him.

In this fourth article I wish to expand further on subject touched on in third article, namely the Catholic rule of faith.   

Jesus Christ, hanging on the Cross, opened up to His Church the fountain ofthose divine gifts, which prevent her from ever teaching false doctrine and enable her to rule them for the salvation of their souls through divinely enlightened pastorsand to bestow on them an abundance of heavenly graces. 

Lionel: John Henry Westen and Life Site correspondents, it has been pointed out numerous times, interpret Vatican Council II and the Catechism of the Catholic Church irrationally. So now there are two versions of all the Creeds, theirs and mine. There are so many reports on social media which Life Site News ignores. Their new theology is the same as that of Pope Francis and the Society of St.Pius X. This is why Archbishop Carlo Maria Vigano cannot appeal against the schism-charge. They are all stuck with Vatican Council II irrational, which is being called ‘ a new Magisterium’ making the ecclesiology of the Latin Mass obsolete. No one objects on this point except for me.

Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis Christi, No. 31 

(LifeSiteNews) — Our Lord Jesus Christ established the Catholic Church to teach the fullness of Divine Revelation until the His Second Coming. He endowed His Church with the attributes of indefectibility and infallibility to ensure that she will not fail in her mission. Every generation of Catholics, from the time of the Apostles until Our Lord’s return, will receive exactly the same doctrine from the teaching authority which He has established.   

Truths beyond the grasp of unaided human reason have been gradually revealed to humanity since the beginning of the human race, but public revelation was brought to completion with Christ’s Apostles, to whom the fullness of the Divine Revelation was entrusted. Our Lord commissioned these Apostles to proclaim it to the entire world: 

Jesus came near and spoke to them; All authority in heaven and on earth, he said, has been given to me;you, therefore, must go out, making disciples of all nations, and baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost,teaching them to observe all the commandments which I have given you. And behold I am with you all through the days that are coming, until the consummation of the world. (Mt 28:19-20) 

The apostles faithfully fulfilled this great commission and were martyred in turn. Around the year 100AD, St John died a natural death, the only apostle to do so, and with his death public revelation ended. But the “consummation of the world” was yet to come, and therefore the mission of the Church continued. The Successors of the Apostles, led by the Successor of St. Peter, continued the apostolic mission of teaching the fullness of Divine Revelation to each new generation, and to them to the promise also has been made “I am with you all through the days that are coming, until the consummation of the world’”. 

The Sacred Magisterium of the Catholic Church is divinely protected. It will never fail to transmit the entirety of Divine Revelation. And with its authority to teach, comes the obligation of the faithful to receive its teaching. As Our Lord said when he sent out his disciples: 

He that heareth you, heareth me; and he that despiseth you, despiseth me; and he that despiseth me, despiseth him that sent me. (Lk 10:16)

Lionel: The objective mistake in the 1949 Letter of the Holy Office is not part of the Deposit of the Faith. It has an objective error which cannot be Magisterial. It says not everyone needs to be a member of the Catholic Church for salvation since it assumes there are objectively known exceptions. The dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus and the Athanasius Creed says everyone needs to enter the Church and does not mention any exceptions. It was common sense over the centuries that the baptism of desire referred to an invisible person in our human reality.

Sources of Divine Revelation 

The ultimate source of Divine Revelation is God. The source from which we receive it is the Sacred Magisterium, that is, the teaching of the Successors of the Apostles, and, pre-eminently, the pope, the Successor of St Peter.  

However, the pope and bishops in each generation must have sources in which they find the doctrine that they are to teach for, as Monsignor Van Noort remarks, “it is obvious on the one hand that they never personally heard Christ Himself or the apostles teaching through the Holy Spirit, and equally obvious on the other hand that they do not get the doctrine of Christ by way of fresh, direct revelation.”[1]

Therefore:  

[T]he only possible answer is that this doctrine comes to them from preceding generations by way of tradition.[2]

Tradition means handing down. The Successors of the Apostles have received the content of the Divine Revelation from their predecessors, and they hand on it to those who follow them. This transmission from one generation to the next is protected by the charism of infallibility to ensure that nothing is lost, and that nothing is added.  

St. Paul, in his Second Letter to the Thessalonians, spoke of these traditions, exhorting: 

Stand firm, then, brethren, and hold by the traditions you have learned, in word or in writing, from us. (2 Thess 2:15)  

Divine Revelation is contained both in written documents and in oral preaching. The written revelation consists of the inspired writings of the Old and New Testaments. This is called Sacred Scripture.  

The oral preaching is called Sacred TraditionSacred Tradition is the handing down of the gospel by the teaching of the Successors of the Apostles. However, it is not only found in their oral preaching but in the written monuments of this preaching.   

The primary monuments of Sacred Tradition are the acts of the magisterium: the official acts of the Apostles, of the Successors of St. Peter, and of the other Successors of the Apostles, whether as individual heads of local churches, or gathered together in councils. The Sacred Liturgy is also a primary monument of Sacred Tradition, because it is established and regulated by the authority of the Successors of the Apostles. 

The secondary monuments of Sacred Tradition are writings such as those of the Fathers and Doctors of the Church, of theologians, and of other ecclesiastical writers, all of which are witnesses to the doctrine preached by the Successors of the Apostles. Christian art and architecture are also secondary monuments of Sacred Tradition, because they too witness to the faith preached by the Sacred Magisterium.  

Therefore, we can speak of two sources of divine revelation from which the Sacred Magisterium finds its doctrine: Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition

Fine modulo

Twentieth century Spanish theologian Joachim Salaverri S.J. summarized them as follows: 

Holy Scripture, or the written word of God, is the deposit of revealed truths inspired by God, which are contained in the holy books of the Old and New Testament.

Divine Tradition, or the handed on word of God, is the deposit of revealed truths attested by God, which in the continuing preaching and faith of the Church are perennially preserved by God.[3] 

These sources taken together are called the deposit of faith, for as Salaverri explains:  

A source or fount of revelation, like a fountain of water, in general is said to be a deposit or place in which divine revelation is contained or from which it can be drawn.[4]

Lionel. Vatican Council II, irrational is common in the Catholic Church. It is not part of the Deposit of the Faith. Vatican Council II interpreted irrationally would be traditional, Magisterial and in harmony with Tradition.-Lionel Andrades


Now I know that liberalism is not only heretical (rejection of the Athanasius Creed) but also schismatic (rupture with the 16th century Magisterium and missionaries on the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus, Athanasius Creed, rational understanding of the Nicene Creed, traditional mission based upon ecclesiocentrism etc). It is based uppon Vatican Council II irrational

 



Liberalism is a sin, was the title of a book I read a long time back. And I agreed with the author. But at that time I did not know that the wide-spread liberalism in the Church was caused by Vatican Council II and the 1949 Letter of the Holy Office to the Archbishop of Boston, both interpreted irrationally. I did not know that the Council could be interpreted rationally. Now I know that liberalism is not only heretical (rejection of the Athanasius Creed) but also schismatic (rupture with the 16th century Magisterium and missionaries on the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus, Athanasius Creed, rational understanding of the Nicene Creed, traditional mission based upon ecclesiocentrism etc).It is based upon Vatican Council II, irrationally.

So when Bishop Athanasius Schneider, Cardinal Raymond Burke, Cardinal Robert Sarah and other conservatives say that Lumen Gentium 16 is an exception for the Athanasius Creed it is heresy and schism. It is the same mistake made by Bishop Robert Barron, Cardinal Victor Manuel Fernandez and Archbishop-elect John Joseph Kennedy.

For me Lumen Gentium 16 is a hypothetical case. It refers to an invisible case in 1949-2024.So it is not an exception for Feeneyite extra ecclesiam nulla salus. The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (DDF/Holy Office) made an objective mistake in the 1949 Letter of the Holy Office to the Archbishop of Boston relative to Fr. Leonard Feeney.

But this was not known to me some 20 or 25 years back. - Lionel Andrades

Ghassan : Medugorje is a village for 'recharge' It is connected to God. Especially on Cross Mountain : Over 10 visits to Medugorje. "You feel happy here"

TRENDING : SEPTEMBER 6, 2024 All the Franciscans of the Immaculate speakers at the theological conference in Soctland will be interpreting the Catechism of Pope Pius X, the Catehism of the catholic Church and Vatiican Council II irrationally

 

SEPTEMBER 6, 2024

All the Franciscans of the Immaculate speakers at the theological conference in Soctland will be interpreting the Catechism of Pope Pius X, the Catehism of the catholic Church and Vatiican Council II irrationally

 

https://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2024/09/our-lady-as-new-eve-international.html#more



All the Franciscans of the Immaculate speakers at the theological conference in Soctland will be interpreting the Catechism of Pope Pius X, the Catehism of the catholic Church and Vatiican Council II irrationally. -Lionel Andrades

 SEPTEMBER 6, 2024

Matt Gaspers, editor or Catholic Family News and Roberto dei Mattei director of Correspondenza Romano do not deny that they have been interpreting the Catechism of Pope Pius X irrationally

 

Matt Gaspers, editor or Catholic Family News and Roberto dei Mattei director of Correspondenza Romano do not deny that they have been interpreting the Catechism of Pope Pius X irrationally, with 'the red being an exception to the blue.' They also do not want to interpret this Catechism rationally, i.e. 'the red is not an exception for the blue' since then they would be affirming Feeneyite extra ecclesiam nulla salus, the Athanasius Creed with no exceptions and the Syllabus of Errors ( ecumenism of return with no exceptions). This would be politically incorrect and a threat financially - Lionel Andrades


SEPTEMBER 4, 2024

Matt Gaspers editor Catholic Family News and traditionalists interpret the Catechism of Pope Pius X irrationally. They interpret this traditional catechism with 'the red being an exception for the blue'. I avoid this error.

 

Matt Gaspers editor Catholic Family News  and traditionalists interpret the Catechism of Pope Pius X irrationally. They interpret this traditional catechism with 'the red being an exception for the blue'. I avoid this error.


Catechism of the Pope Pius X : the red is not an exception for the blue

 


23 Q. In what does the Body of the Church consist?
A. The Body of the Church consists in her external and visible aspect, that is, in the association of her members, in her worship, in her teaching-power and in her external rule and government.

24 Q. To be saved, is it enough to be any sort of member of the Catholic Church?
A. No, to be saved it is not enough to be any sort of member of the Catholic Church; it is necessary to be a living member.

25 Q. Who are the living members of the Church?
A. The living members of the Church are the just, and the just alone, that is, those who are actually in the grace of God.

 27 Q. Can one be saved outside the Catholic, Apostolic and Roman Church?

A. No, no one can be saved outside the Catholic, Apostolic Roman Church, just as no one could be saved from the flood outside the Ark of Noah, which was a figure of the Church.

 

29 Q. But if a man through no fault of his own is outside the Church, can he be saved?
A. If he is outside the Church through no fault of his, that is, if he is in good faith, and if he has received Baptism, or at least has the implicit desire of Baptism; and if, moreover, he sincerely seeks the truth and does God's will as best he can such a man is indeed separated from the body of the Church, but is united to the soul of the Church and consequently is on the way of salvation

 

11 Q. Who are they who are outside the true Church?
A. Outside the true Church are: Infidels, Jews, heretics, apostates, schismatics, and the excommunicated.

12 Q. Who are infidels?
A. Infidels are those who have not been baptised and do not believe in Jesus Christ, because they either believe in and worship false gods as idolaters do, or though admitting one true God, they do not believe in the Messiah, neither as already come in the Person of Jesus Christ, nor as to come; for instance, Mohammedans and the like.

13 Q. Who are the Jews?
A. The Jews are those who profess the Law of Moses; have not received baptism; and do not believe in Jesus Christ.

14 Q. Who are heretics?
A. Heretics are those of the baptised who obstinately refuse to believe some truth revealed by God and taught as an article of faith by the Catholic Church; for example, the Arians, the Nestorians and the various sects of Protestants.

 Necessity of Baptism and Obligations of the Baptised

16 Q. Is Baptism necessary to salvation?
A. Baptism is absolutely necessary to salvation, for our Lord has expressly said: "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God."

17 Q. Can the absence of Baptism be supplied in any other way?
A. The absence of Baptism can be supplied by martyrdom, which is called Baptism of Blood, or by an act of perfect love of God, or of contrition, along with the desire, at least implicit, of Baptism, and this is called Baptism of Desire.

18 Q. To what is the person baptised bound?
A. The person baptised is bound to always profess the faith and observe the Law of Jesus Christ and of His Church.




For them the hypothetical (red) passages being exceptions for the orthodox (blue) passages which support Feeneyite extra ecclesiam nulla salus. This is dishonesty among the traditionalists. They go for the Latin Mass and use a fake premise (invisible people are visible in 2024) to avoid being labeled Feeneyite on EENS. The Lefebvrists in general are Cushingites.

 


The Lefebvrists also interpret the Catechism of the Catholic Church irrationally, like the USCCB Doctrinal Committee and the Dicastery for the Doctrine of the Faith, Vatican. They make the same mistake with Vatican Council II  too.




 

Matt Gaspers would also be interpreting the Nicene, Apostles and the Athanasius Creed irrationally. He goes along with the objective error in the 1949 Letter of the Holy Office to the Archbishop of Boston. It was repeated by Pope Paul VI (1965). The same mistake was made by Archbishop Lefebvre and Coetus International. 

The ecclesiology of the Roman Missal is Feeneyite by correspondents of the CFN would interpret it with Cushingism.


-Lionel Andrades

 

 



SEPTEMBER 3, 2024

All the books on Vatican Council II written by Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre are now obsolete. He interpreted the Council irrationally, with the red being an exception for the blue. Also all those articles and statements by Archbishop Carlo Maria Vigano on Vatican Council II are now meaningless.

 

All the books on Vatican Council II written by Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre are now obsolete. He interpreted the Council irrationally, with the red being an exception for the blue. Also all those articles and statements by Archbishop Carlo Maria Vigano on Vatican Council II are now meaningless. We know that Vatican Council II interpreted rationally i.e. 'the red is not an exception for the blue' has a continuity with the pre-1949 Magisterium.  There is continuity with the middle Ages.

Over the last 15 years there has been a new discovery i.e., the red is not an exception for the blue. The passages marked in red are hypothetical and so do not contradict the orthodox and exclusivist passages marked in blue in Vatican Council II, the Catechism of the Catholic Church, the Catechism of Pope Pius X, Dominus Iesus etc. 

So  the Catholic Family News recent interview/statement of Archbishop Vigano by Matt Gaspers is behind times. The relevant questions were not put to the Italian archbishop.1

He stands excommunicated by Cardinal Victor Manuel Fernandez and Archbishop-elect John Joseph Kennedy who both interpreted the Council and the Catechism irrationally i.e. the red is an exception for the blue, during the schism trial. 

CFN Contributors:

1

https://catholicfamilynews.com/blog/2024/07/19/exclusive-abp-vigano-clarifies-his-position-following-ddf-ruling-part-i/


_____________________  

SEPTEMBER 3, 2024

The Society of St. Pius X (SSPX) bishops, their Superior General, Bishop Athanasius Schneider, Roberto dei Mattei and Archbishop Carlo Maria Vigano, are still interpreting Vatican Council II with ‘the red being an exception for the blue’. There is no comment from the SSPX priests who offer the Latin Mass in Rome and at Albano, Italy.

 

The Society of St. Pius X (SSPX) bishops, their Superior General, Bishop Athanasius Schneider, Roberto dei Mattei and Archbishop Carlo Maria Vigano, are still interpreting Vatican Council II with ‘the red being an exception for the blue’. There is no comment from the SSPX priests who offer the Latin Mass in Rome and at Albano, Italy.

Archbishop Vigano has praised Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre but both of them, Vigano and Lefebvre, did not interpret Vatican Council II and the Catechisms, with ‘the red not being an exception for the blue’. They both, though, were correct in rejecting Vatican Council II (irrational- the red is an exception for the blue).

If they have any questions they can e-mail me at this contact number:

lionelandrades10@gmail.com

 They can also meet me personally in Rome.

- Lionel Andrades

https://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2024/09/the-society-of-st.html

https://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2024/09/all-books-on-vatican-council-ii-written.html


AUGUST 31, 2024

Bishop Kevin C.Rhoades, the bishop of Fort Wayne Bend, Texas, USA and Aaron Seng, founder of Tradivox, interpret the Catechisms with ‘the red being an exception for the blue’ while for me ‘the red is not an exception for the blue’. They interpret the Catechisms irrationally. I choose to be rational and traditional. They choose irrational Cushingism. I choose rational Feeneyism.

 




Bishop Kevin C.Rhoades, the bishop of Fort Wayne Bend, Texas, USA and Aaron Seng, founder of Tradivox, interpret the Catechisms with ‘the red being an exception for the blue’ while for me ‘the red is not an exception for the blue’. They interpret the Catechisms irrationally. I choose to be rational and traditional. They choose irrational Cushingism. I choose rational Feeneyism.With a false premise and inference they produce a non traditional conclusion. With a rational premise and inference I go back to the old theology and traditional ecclesiology- Lionel Andrades



Aaron Seng is the president of Tradivox and general editor of the Catholic Catechism Index, a twenty-volume collection of traditional Catholic catechisms published by Sophia Institute Press.


I am in harmony with the Magisterium of the Apostles, Church Fathers and those of the Middle Ages. They do not have continuity with the Magisterium over the centuries before 1949.

AUGUST 30, 2024

The Catechism of the Catholic Church is Feeneyite . It must not be interpreted with irrational Cushingism for political reasons

 


 


III. THE CHURCH IS CATHOLIC 

The Church and non-Christians 

841

 

The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."330 (Lionel : Hypothetically a Muslim can be saved. In reality we cannot know of any such case. So CCC 841 does not contradict the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus and neither CCC 845-846 ( Outside the Church there is no salvation)

330.

 LG 16; cf. NA 3.

360

842

 The Church's bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race:All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city...331(Lionel: Yes salvation is open to all in general but to receive this salvation all need to enter the Catholic Church ( CCC 845-846, Dominus Iesus 20 , Ad Gentes 7 etc). 

331.

 NA 1.

28
856

843

 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."332 ( Lionel: Yes. For salvation they must accept Jesus in the Catholic Church.( Ad Gentes 7, CCC 845-846 etc). Outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation.

332.

 LG 16; cf. NA 2; EN 53.

844

 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.333

333.

 LG 16; cf. Rom 1:21, 25.

1219
30
953

845

 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son's Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is "the world reconciled." She is that bark which "in the full sail of the Lord's cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world." According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah's ark, which alone saves from the flood.334 (Lionel: CCC 845 is saying outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation)

334.

 St. Augustine, Serm. 96,7,9:PL 38,588; St. Ambrose, De virg. 18 118:PL 16,297B; cf. already 1 Pet 3:20-21.

"Outside the Church there is no salvation" 

1257
161

846

 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336 (Lionel: faith and baptism are necessary for salvation, membership in the Catholic Church with faith and baptism are necessary for salvation. In Heaven there are only Catholics. They are there with faith and baptism and without mortal sin on their soul. Outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation ( Council of Florence 1442 etc)

335.

 Cf. Cyprian, Ep. 73.21:PL 3,1169; De unit.:PL 4,509-536.

336.

 LG 14; cf. Mk 16:16Jn 3:5.

847

 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience — those too may achieve eternal salvation.337 (Lionel : Those who do not know Christ and His Church and yet are saved are hypothetical cases. They are invisible people in 2024. So they are not practical exceptions for the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus ( Fourth Lateran Council  etc or CCC 845-846 or Ad Gentes 7 ( all need faith and baptism for salvation).

337.

 LG 16; cf. DS 3866-3872.

1260

848

 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338(Lionel: Those who are saved in invincibile ignorance are once again, hypothetical cases only. We cannot meet or see someone saved in ignorance. This can only be known to God. So being saved in ignorance is not an objective exception for the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus or CCC 845-846).The Catechism of the Catholic Church supports Feeneyite extra ecclesiam nulla salus.The Catechism is in harmony with the Catechisms of Trent, Baltimore, Pius X etc

338.

 AG 7; cf. Heb 11:61 Cor 9:16.

 AUGUST 30, 2024

For Aaron Seng and Tradivox, the passages in red contradict the passages in blue. But for me they do not. For me the passages in red are hypothetical cases. They are invisible people in 2024.

 "Outside the Church there is no salvation" 

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body: 

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.

 847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church: 

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."

-Catechism of the Catholic Church 846-848 



For Aaron Seng and Tradivox, the passages in red contradict the passages in blue. But for me they do not. For me the passages in red are hypothetical cases. They are invisible people in 2024.

But for Aaron and the traditionalists and liberals in general, the passages in red are non hypothetical cases. They would have to objective and known non Catholics saved outside the Catholic Church for them to be exceptions for the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus and the orthodox passages in blue. An invisible person cannot be an exception. Someone has to be there in our reality, he has to be present to be an exception.  - Lionel Andrades

https://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2024/08/for-aaron-seng-and-tradivox-passages-in.html



______________________________________ 

 AUGUST 30, 2024

Catechism of the Pope Pius X : the red is not an exception for the blue

  


23 Q. In what does the Body of the Church consist?

A. The Body of the Church consists in her external and visible aspect, that is, in the association of her members, in her worship, in her teaching-power and in her external rule and government.

24 Q. To be saved, is it enough to be any sort of member of the Catholic Church?

A. No, to be saved it is not enough to be any sort of member of the Catholic Church; it is necessary to be a living member.

25 Q. Who are the living members of the Church?

A. The living members of the Church are the just, and the just alone, that is, those who are actually in the grace of God.

 27 Q. Can one be saved outside the Catholic, Apostolic and Roman Church?

A. No, no one can be saved outside the Catholic, Apostolic Roman Church, just as no one could be saved from the flood outside the Ark of Noah, which was a figure of the Church.

 

29 Q. But if a man through no fault of his own is outside the Church, can he be saved?

A. If he is outside the Church through no fault of his, that is, if he is in good faith, and if he has received Baptism, or at least has the implicit desire of Baptism; and if, moreover, he sincerely seeks the truth and does God's will as best he can such a man is indeed separated from the body of the Church, but is united to the soul of the Church and consequently is on the way of salvation

 

11 Q. Who are they who are outside the true Church?

A. Outside the true Church are: Infidels, Jews, heretics, apostates, schismatics, and the excommunicated.

 

12 Q. Who are infidels?

A. Infidels are those who have not been baptised and do not believe in Jesus Christ, because they either believe in and worship false gods as idolaters do, or though admitting one true God, they do not believe in the Messiah, neither as already come in the Person of Jesus Christ, nor as to come; for instance, Mohammedans and the like.

 

13 Q. Who are the Jews?

A. The Jews are those who profess the Law of Moses; have not received baptism; and do not believe in Jesus Christ.

 

14 Q. Who are heretics?

A. Heretics are those of the baptised who obstinately refuse to believe some truth revealed by God and taught as an article of faith by the Catholic Church; for example, the Arians, the Nestorians and the various sects of Protestants.

 Necessity of Baptism and Obligations of the Baptised

16 Q. Is Baptism necessary to salvation?

A. Baptism is absolutely necessary to salvation, for our Lord has expressly said: "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God."

 

17 Q. Can the absence of Baptism be supplied in any other way?

A. The absence of Baptism can be supplied by martyrdom, which is called Baptism of Blood, or by an act of perfect love of God, or of contrition, along with the desire, at least implicit, of Baptism, and this is called Baptism of Desire.

 

18 Q. To what is the person baptised bound?

A. The person baptised is bound to always profess the faith and observe the Law of Jesus Christ and of His Church.

  

https://www.ewtn.com/catholicism/library/catechism-of-st-pius-x-1286



In the Catechism of Pope St. Pius X the passages in red are hypothetical  and so are not practical exceptions for the passages in blue which are orthodox and support the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus, Ad Gentes 7 in Vatican Council II and the Catechism of the Catholic Church 845-846.

Aaron Seng at Tradivox and Peter Kwasniewski at Whispers of Restoration would be wrongly interpreting the red as being an exception for the blue. So the conclusion is non traditional, irrational and heretical and schismatic.

- Lionel Andrades

https://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2024/08/23-q.html



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AUGUST 4, 2022