Repost : What about the dogma on salvation which has 'evolved' for Fr.Zuhlsdorf ?

FEBRUARY 10, 2015

What about the dogma on salvation which has 'evolved' for Fr.Zuhlsdorf ?

What about the dogma on salvation which has 'evolved' for Fr.Zuhlsdorf ? If you can get rid of an infallible teaching you can get rid of anything. Hilary White on LifeSites quotes Cardinal Raymond Burke saying "I will resist".

Yes - but Hilary White(LifeSites.com) and Fr.John Zuhlsdorf do not resist when extra ecclesiam nulla salus is discarded due to their being known exceptions to the defined dogma ( even when these exceptions refer to deceased persons).

Of course the Eucharist should not be given to Catholics living in adultery and yes it should not also be given to Catholics who reject an infallible teaching in public.

-Lionel Andrades

February 10, 2015

Fr.John Zuhlsdorf made an objective mistake : irrational interpretation of Vatican Council II

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2015/02/frjohn-zuhlsdorf-made-objective-mistake.html

https://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2015/02/what-about-dogma-on-salvation-which-has.html

Repost : Extra ecclesiam nulla salus is linked to Vatican Council II. Louie Verrechio and Fr.Zuhlsdorf have still to discover it.

FEBRUARY 10, 2015

Extra ecclesiam nulla salus is linked to Vatican Council II. Louie Verrechio and Fr.Zuhlsdorf have still to discover it.

It’s true that there is no salvation outside the Holy Catholic Church, this Mystical Body of Christ of which we are called to be members- Louis Verrecchio

http://www.harvestingthefruit.com/conversations/

 

 

It’s true that there is no salvation outside the Holy Catholic Church, this Mystical Body of Christ of which we are called to be members could also be said by Fr.Leonard Feeney of Boston as it has been said by Louis Verrecchio. The statement is also made by Fr.John Zuhlsdorf.

 

The same statement was made by the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 and it did not agree with Fr.Leonard Feeney.

So something is wrong somewhere it must be admitted by Verrecchio and Fr.Z.

None of the comments on this report by Louie supported Fr.Leonard Feeney. They did not even mention his name. Why ? Since they all assume that

1) there are visible and known cases in 2015 for someone to be saved with the baptism of desire and invincible ignorance.

2) There were magisterial documents (Mystici Corporis etc) which mentioned that the baptism of desire and being saved in invincible ignorance referred to objective cases in the present times and that these documents stated that these cases were explicit exceptions to extra ecclesiam nulla salus.

3) Pope John Paul II and Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, the magisterium, cannot be wrong.

False! On all three counts it is false.


 

1) We cannot see the dead, there are no visible exceptions.

2) No Church document makes this claim. They mention being saved with implicit desire or in invincible ignorance but do not state that these cases are exceptions to the dogma. This is the wrong inference which is made when reading these Church documents before 1949.They can be read without the inference, the irrational premise.

3)Pope John Paul II and Cardinal Ratzinger made the same error which comes from the 1949 Cardinal Marchetti letter.

 

Vatican Council II can be interpreted without the Marchetti theory.

 

Extra ecclesiam nulla salus is linked to Vatican Council II. Louie Verrechio and Fr.Zuhlsdorf have still to discover it.

-Lionel Andrades

 

February 10, 2015

Fr.John Zuhlsdorf made an objective mistake : irrational interpretation of Vatican Council II

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2015/02/frjohn-zuhlsdorf-made-objective-mistake.html

https://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2015/02/extra-ecclesiam-nulla-salus-is-linked.html

Repost : The baptism of desire is accepted by me since it is not an exception to the dogma even when it occurs and it is known only to God

FEBRUARY 11, 2015

The baptism of desire is accepted by me since it is not an exception to the dogma even when it occurs and it is known only to God

I received an e-mail.

Lionel,

There is no doubt in my humble mind that you are a devout Catholic. Your daily activities demonstrate an intense desire to try to do the will of God. You are absolutely correct and more importantly you are obedient to Jesus and the Church who commands us to teach ALL both Catholic and Non Catholic alike that there is no Salvation Outside the Catholic Church and we must have baptism by water in order to be saved. There is no reason to ever do anything other than to abide by this command. Therefore Baptism of desire, Baptism of Blood and Invincible Ignorance are extremely unlikely to ever come up during discussion with a Catholic or non Catholic unless you bring it up. In my entire life in untold conversations it has NEVER come up.

Having said this I must tell you that your understanding of Baptism of Desire, Baptism of Blood and Invincible Ignorance are wrong and prone to your private interpretation. Although you somewhat acknowledge their possibilities you act as if they are a null reality as judged by God in Heaven." Isaiah 40;13 Who hath forwarded the Spirit of the Lord? or who had been His councilor and taught Him?" Isaiah records in scripture with scorn and indignation. Also please reverence Romans 11:34, 1 Corinthians 2:16 and Ephesians 1:11. You say that those who attain salvation are not known or visible to us and you are partly correct. You are only correct in regards to those who are alive on this earth. That is the very reason that we never assume, project, encourage or forecast to anyone that this is a manner that they can choose from for salvation. This is the area where all save a few in the Church have failed to teach all that they must stay, return or enter into
the Catholic Church with no exceptions. Jesus commanded us to do this and there are no exceptions. While a person is alive the Church knows of and should never teach of any other path for Salvation. Lionel where you are wrong is by saying that we do not know of anyone saved by Baptism of desire, Baptism of Blood or Invincible Ignorance. Examples of non Baptized Saints who are known to us and have been recorded and taught and even mentioned in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass for centuries. Saints Perpetua and Felicity were declared Catechumen Saints as remembered at Mass.
"Vibia Perpetua, a well-to-do young woman and mother, and Felicitas, a slave who gave birth to a child three days before suffering a martyr's death, were catechumens as recorded officially by the Church for ALL to believe. Lionel it is not for you to speculate or council God on particular or individual judgement for God is God and you are not. Our responsibility, duty and command is to teach all while on earth that there is no Salvation Outside the Catholic Church and baptism by water is a necessity for salvation.
Lionel you may take solace in the following syllabus of Pope Pius IX but you not think that if Baptism of Desire, Baptism of Blood and Invincible Ignorance were not Church teaching that they would have been condemned by a syllabus after all these centuries. These conditions are most certainly misused by all save a few in The Church to project salvation for the living and that is a tragedy which will be remedied by the Church or Jesus Himself.

III. INDIFFERENTISM, LATITUDINARIANISM / Syllabus of Errors +++ Pope Pius IX

Condemned......NEVER to be undone

15. Every man is free to embrace and profess that religion which, guided by the light of reason, he shall consider true. -- Allocution "Maxima quidem," June 9, 1862; Damnatio "Multiplices inter," June 10, 1851.
16. Man may, in the observance of any religion whatever, find the way of eternal salvation, and arrive at eternal salvation. -- Encyclical "Qui pluribus," Nov. 9, 1846.

17. Good hope at least is to be entertained of the eternal salvation of all those who are not at all in the true Church of Christ. -- Encyclical "Quanto conficiamur," Aug. 10, 1863, etc.

18. Protestantism is nothing more than another form of the same true Christian religion, in which form it is given
to please God equally as in the Catholic Church. -- Encyclical "Noscitis," Dec. 8, 1849.

__________________________________________

Lionel: 

REPLY:

 

Dear ...

Thank you for your kind letter and comments.Let me clarify at the onset that I do not deny the possibility of someone being saved with the baptism of desire ( implicit desire, charity and baptism of water). I only do not posit it as an exception to the dogma. SInce obviously in 2015 we do not and cannot know any such case.

So the baptism of desire was never ever relevant or an exception to the interpretation of Fr.Leonard Feeney. The Holy Office made a factual mistake. This has not been observed by the Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary or the SSPX.

So this mistake has been carried over into Vatican Council II.

________________________________

Having said this I must tell you that your understanding of Baptism of Desire, Baptism of Blood and Invincible Ignorance are wrong and prone to your private interpretation. Although you somewhat acknowledge their possibilities (Yes they are possibilities) you act as if they are a null reality ( they are a ' null reality' for us humans. Since we cannot know who they are in the present times 2015. Of course they are known to God) as judged by God in Heaven." Isaiah 40;13 Who hath forwarded the Spirit of the Lord? or who had been His councilor and taught Him?" Isaiah records in scripture with scorn and indignation. Also please reverence Romans 11:34, 1 Corinthians 2:16 and Ephesians 1:11. You say that those who attain salvation are not known or visible to us and you are partly correct. You are only correct in regards to those who are alive on this earth. That is the very reason that we never assume, project, encourage or forecast to anyone that this is a manner that they can choose from for salvation.(Unclear) This is the area where all save a few in the Church have failed to teach all that they must stay, return or enter into
the Catholic Church with no exceptions. Jesus commanded us to do this and there are no exceptions. While a person is alive the Church knows of and should never teach of any other path for Salvation.(Agreed)
Lionel where you are wrong is by saying that we do not know of anyone saved by Baptism of desire, Baptism of Blood or Invincible Ignorance. Examples of non Baptized Saints who are known to us and have been recorded and taught and even mentioned in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass for centuries. Saints Perpetua and Felicity were declared Catechumen Saints as remembered at Mass."Vibia Perpetua, a well-to-do young woman and mother, and Felicitas, a slave who gave birth to a child three days before suffering a martyr's death, were catechumens as recorded officially by the Church for ALL to believe.(Yes it is possibile. It is possibile. It is also possible that in some way she received the baptism of water unknown to us) Lionel it is not for you to speculate or council God on particular or individual judgement for God is God and you are not. (the baptism of desire is accepted by me since it is not an exception to the dogma even when it occurs and it is known only to God ) Our responsibility, duty and command is to teach all while on earth that there is no Salvation Outside the Catholic Church and baptism by water is a necessity for salvation.(Agreed)
Lionel you may take solace in the following syllabus of Pope Pius IX but you not think that if Baptism of Desire, Baptism of Blood and Invincible Ignorance were not Church teaching (they are Church teaching and no Church document before 1949 says they are an exception to the dogma. This was the brainwave of Cardinal Marchetti. He brought this into the Church i.e if he wrote that controversial part of the Letter of the Holy Office 1949. However the magisterium accepts that Marchetti wrote that letter.They also accept his error.) that they would have been condemned by a syllabus after all these centuries. These conditions are most certainly misused by all save a few in The Church to project salvation for the living and that is a tragedy which will be remedied by the Church or Jesus Himself.

-Lionel Andrades

https://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2015/02/the-baptism-of-desire-is-accepted-by-me.html

 

 

Repost : The mention of the necessity of 'faith and baptism' for salvation, is an approval here of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus, in Vatican Council II (LG 14,AG 7)

FEBRUARY 11, 2015

The mention of the necessity of 'faith and baptism' for salvation, is an approval here of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus, in Vatican Council II (LG 14,AG 7)

7) “Basing itself upon Sacred Scripture and Tradition, [this Council] teaches that the Church, now sojourning on earth as an exile, is necessary for salvation. Christ, present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation. In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism, as through a door, men enter the Church. Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved” (Lumen Gentium, #14).(Lionel: And they are unknown to us and can only be known to God. So they are not exceptions to 'the necessity of faith and baptism'(LG 14) for all in 2015 for salvation ( to avoid Hell).

Vatican II admitted to the possibility of salvation for non-Catholics (Lumen Gentium, #14-16).(Lionel: They could be saved with implicit desire or in inculpable ignorance. However since these are hypothetical cases for us and are  known only to God, we can assume they received the baptism of water and had Catholic Faith, when they went to Heaven. This is the dogmatic teaching. Since these cases cannot be known to us in the present times they are not exceptions to all needing 'faith and baptism' (LG 14,AG 7) for salvation. There is no contradiction here to the 'rigorist' interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.) This created a firestorm both within and without the Church, as it seemed to reverse the Church’s perennial teaching of “outside the Church there is no salvation.” (Lionel: The confusion arose with the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 which assumed wrongly, that these cases were known to us in the present times and so it was concluded wrongly, that they were explicit exceptions to the dogma outside the Chruch there is no salvation) The result was that many questioned the necessity of the missionary endeavors of the Church, because if non-Catholics could be saved, why bother trying to convert them? (Lionel: There was no known case of a non Catholic saved outside the Church. This was the mistake of the Letter of the Holy Office 1949. The error was not corrected and so the confusion was allowed to be placed in Vatican Council II LG 14) And one hardly need to mention the fact that now practically every funeral is a mini-canonization ceremony.

There are two important things to note about this passage. One is that it clearly states that those who know of the necessity of the Church for salvation cannot remain outside of it and hope to be saved. (Lionel: This is part of the confusion which came from the Letter of the Holy Office 1949. Since it was wrongly assumed that those saved in invincible ignorance are known to us in personal cases, it was wrongly concluded that only those who know about Jesus and the Church and do not enter, will be condemned. This was a new doctrine created by Cardinal Francesco Marchetti Selvaggiani in the Letter of the Holy Office 1949.The original teaching is all with Original Sin need to convert inot the Church to avoid Hell.) The other is that, notwithstanding an acknowledgement of the possibility of salvation for non-Catholics, it also clearly states that the Church is necessary for salvation and that Christ is “the unique way of salvation.” (Lionel: The mention of the necessity of 'faith and baptism' for salvation, is an approval here of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus, in Vatican Council II (LG 14,AG 7).This was the message also of Fr.Leonard Feeney and the St.Benedict Centers whom Cardinal Marchetti criticized).This is important to mention because some interpret Vatican II’s acknowledgment of the possibility of salvation for non-Catholics as saying that there are other paths of salvation outside the Church. But this, in fact, is not what either the council or the Church teaches. As a 2000 document from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith makes clear, God’s “salvific grace … is always given by means of Christ in the Spirit and has a mysterious relationship to the Church.” The point is that those who may happen to be saved outside the visible confines of the Church are not saved in spite of the Church or Christ, but arrive at salvation some way through the Church and Christ. (Lionel: They arrive at salvation with 'faith and baptism'. There is no other way. We also do not know of any person in 2015 who has arrived at salvation through any other way).The council is, in fact, reaffirming the exclusive claim of Christ and His Church as the one path to salvation.  (Lionel: Yes, extra ecclesiam nulla salus according to Fr.Leonard Feeney of Boston and not Cardinal Marchetti at the Holy Office in 1949). - Lionel Andrades

 

http://www.crisismagazine.com/2015/passages-vatican-ii-every-catholic-know

https://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2015/02/the-mention-of-necessity-of-faith-and.html

Aasia Bibi is not choosing to become a Muslim.So her Muslim accusers want her dead.Like large swathes of the population, fearful themselves of Islamic law,the demand for her death,is the politically correct thing, to say and do and so protect one's life.

For a Catholic Mohammad is in Hell. This is the traditional understanding of the Church.This is how the popes and saints interpreted the Bible.It is the teaching of Vatican Council II and the Catechisms incuding that of Pope John Paul II's Catechism of the Catholic Church,interpreted with Feeneyism and not the New Theology, Cushingism.

So if Aasia Bibi in Pakistan, now before the Supreme Court, would say that Mohammad was not a prophet for her and he was in Hell without 'faith and baptism' (Ad Gentes 7, Vatican Council II),she would be affirming her Catholic ( Christian) belief.All need 'faith and baptism' for salvation is the teaching of the Catholic Church(AG 7) and so outside the Church there is no salvation.All need to be members of the Catholic Church, the only Church Jesus founded.Those who know about Jesus and the Church need to enter (AG 7) and also all others in general, including those who do not know(Cantate Domino, Council of Florence 1441  on extra ecclesiam nulla salus etc).The Council refers to 'all'(AG 7).

Catholics are the new people of God, the Chosen People(Nostra Aetate 4,Vatican Council II).They have the Promised Jewish Messiah.They have the ancient temple and Sacrifice, in Holy Mass.It is the  un-bloody Sacrifice of Jesus re-enacted in a Mystical Way.They have the tabernacle which housed the Ark of the Covenant, now with the Eucharist, the Presence of God, as a Person.Catholics have the old Scriptures, including the Jewish Pentateuch, in the Old Testament of their  Bible.

The Catholic Church is the continuation of the Jewish religion.Catholics worship the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.It is the religion of Yahweh, the One God of Israel,the God who sent His only begotten Son, through the Holy Spirit and one with the Holy Spirit, to Sacrifice Himself.This was an offering for the sins of the world.Opening a way of salvation from Hell for all mankind.Salvation only for all who accept Him and believe in Him, in and through the Catholic Church.The Church is his Mystical Body on earth.It is a Divine Organism, through which he saves all from Hell.

Mohammad knew about Jesus and the Catholic Church.The Koran shows that he misunderstood the Catholic concept of the Holy Trinity and One God. Also his understanding of both the human body and the universe was wrong.It was not inspired by God. He was another Bedouin of his time.

He chose to found a new religion whose many beliefs may not have been from God. Instead of accepting Jesus in the Catholic Church, he created new doctrines which opposed that of the Church of Christ.For this disobedience, Dante Alighieri saw in his mystical experience, God sent him to Hell.Others, in the present times have also seen him in Hell.

Muslims, like Protestants who follow Luther, will all find themselves in the same situation after death on earth. They will go to where Mohammad and Luther are presently.Protestants do not have Catholic Faith. They do not have the faith and moral teachings and the Sacraments of the Catholic Church, through which Christ saves.

This is the teaching of the Catholic Church before and after Vatican Council II.However when a Catholic is before a Sharia Court in Pakistan, he or she is aware, that their understanding is, that every one must accept Allah( God) and Mohammad as the last prophet of God.It is not enough only to accept Allah and there is exclusive salvation in only Mohammad's religion.

There is no separation of mosque and state.Those who do not believe in Mohammad as the last prophet, even if they do believe in Allah, like the Qadianis,do not have equal rights as the majority Sunni Muslim population.Their religious views would be blasphemous.

So if a Catholic freely expresses his Christian beliefs, it is inadequate for a Sharia court.The Christian can be sentenced to death.Unless, in certain cases, he repents, becomes a Muslim and is forgiven  by his Muslim accusers, often after making a financial retribution.

Aisha Bibi is not choosing to become a Muslim.So her Muslim accusers want her dead.Like large swathes of the population, fearful themselves of Islamic law,the demand for her death,is the politically correct thing, to say and do  and so protect one's life.-Lionel Andrades

 OCTOBER 13, 2018

Aasia Bibi's right to freedom of religion, worship and expression being run over by Pakistan Supreme Court : judge makes objective mistake a few days back    https://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2018/10/aisha-bibis-right-to-freedom-of.html

 OCTOBER 13, 2018

Court Decision on Aasha Bibi soon ?

https://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2018/10/court-decision-on-aisha-bibi-soon_13.html