Bradley Eli will say that he is
following the Magisterium. I will say the same. I too am following the
Magisterium.He means following the Magisterium with liberalism. I would say, I
am following the Magisterium without his liberalism. I follow the orthodoxy of
the Church which does not change and I do not reject Vatican Council II (rational).
He accepts Magisterial Documents but he
interprets them irrationally to produce a non-traditional conclusion.
I also accept Magisterial Documents
which I interpret rationally to produce a non-traditional conclusion.
He follows Pope Francis who chooses the
New Theology created with the irrational premise and inference. I follow Pope
John Paul II when he did not use the New Theology (Ecclesia di Eucharistia,
Notification, Fr. Jacques Dupuis sj etc), and of course, the popes before the
1949 Letter of the Holy Office (LOHO) to the Archbishop of Boston relative to Fr. Leonard Feeney.
He accepts the second part of the 1949
LOHO which contradicts the first part. The second part uses the false premise.
I accept only the first part of the LOHO
which supports traditional EENS and is not contradicted by the fake premise of
the second part. Catholics are not obliged to follow the second part which is
dishonest.
There can be two interpretations of the
Catholic Church. One is rational and the other irrational. The conclusion
depends upon how we interpret the baptism of desire and being saved in
invincible ignorance, mentioned in the LOHO and in Vatican Council II (LG 14,
LG 16).
Do we use the false premise of the
second part of the LOHO or do we avoid it? This determines the conclusion.
This is why Bradley Eli and my
interpretation of Vatican Council II etc is different. -Lionel Andrades
FIRST PART
LETTER OF THE HOLY OFFICE
From the Headquarters of the Holy Office, Aug. 8, 1949.
Your Excellency:
This Supreme Sacred Congregation has followed very attentively the rise and the course of the grave controversy stirred up by certain associates of "St. Benedict Center" and "Boston College" in regard to the interpretation of that axiom: "Outside the Church there is no salvation."
After having examined all the documents that are necessary or useful in this matter, among them information from your Chancery, as well as appeals and reports in which the associates of "St. Benedict Center" explain their opinions and complaints, and also many other documents pertinent to the controversy, officially collected, the same Sacred Congregation is convinced that the unfortunate controversy arose from the fact that the axiom, "outside the Church there is no salvation," was not correctly understood and weighed, and that the same controversy was rendered more bitter by serious disturbance of discipline arising from the fact that some of the associates of the institutions mentioned above refused reverence and obedience to legitimate authorities.
Accordingly, the Most Eminent and Most Reverend Cardinals of this Supreme Congregation, in a plenary session held on Wednesday, July 27, 1949, decreed, and the august Pontiff in an audience on the following Thursday, July 28, 1949, deigned to give his approval, that the following explanations pertinent to the doctrine, and also that invitations and exhortations relevant to discipline be given:
We are bound by divine and Catholic faith to believe all those things which are contained in the word of God, whether it be Scripture or Tradition, and are proposed by the Church to be believed as divinely revealed, not only through solemn judgment but also through the ordinary and universal teaching office (<Denzinger>, n. 1792).
Now, among those things which the Church has always preached and will never cease to preach is contained also that infallible statement by which we are taught that there is no salvation outside the Church.
However, this dogma must be understood in that sense in which the Church herself understands it. For, it was not to private judgments that Our Savior gave for explanation those things that are contained in the deposit of faith, but to the teaching authority of the Church.
Now, in the first place, the Church teaches that in this matter there is question of a most strict command of Jesus Christ. For He explicitly enjoined on His apostles to teach all nations to observe all things whatsoever He Himself had commanded (Matt. 28: 19-20).
Now, among the commandments of Christ, that one holds not the least place by which we are commanded to be incorporated by baptism into the Mystical Body of Christ, which is the Church, and to remain united to Christ and to His Vicar, through whom He Himself in a visible manner governs the Church on earth.
Therefore, no one will be saved who, knowing the Church to have been divinely established by Christ, nevertheless refuses to submit to the Church or withholds obedience from the Roman Pontiff, the Vicar of Christ on earth.
Not only did the Savior command that all nations should enter the Church, but He also decreed the Church to be a means of salvation without which no one can enter the kingdom of eternal glory.
In His infinite mercy God has willed that the effects, necessary for one to be saved, of those helps to salvation which are directed toward man's final end, not by intrinsic necessity, but only by divine institution, can also be obtained in certain circumstances when those helps are used only in desire and longing. This we see clearly stated in the Sacred Council of Trent, both in reference to the sacrament of regeneration and in reference to the sacrament of penance (<Denzinger>, nn. 797, 807).
SECOND PART
The same in its own degree must be asserted of the Church, in as far as she is the general help to salvation. Therefore, that one may obtain eternal salvation, it is not always required that he be incorporated into the Church actually as a member, but it is necessary that at least he be united to her by desire and longing.
(Lionel: 1. The Letter here contradicts the Fourth Lateran Council (1215) which says everyone needs to be a member of the Catholic Church for salvation. This Council did not mention any exceptions.
2. The Letter assumes that there are visible and known cases of the baptism of desire and being saved in invincible ignorance. There are no such cases in our reality. This is a false premise.
3.The Letter concludes that visible and known cases of the BOD and I.I are objective examples of salvation and so contradict the Fourth Lateran Council on EENS. It also contradicts EENS of the St. Benedict Center and Fr. Leonard Feeney, is the irrational and non traditional conclusion.
4. With visible cases of BOD and I.I the Nicene Creed says" We believe in three or more known baptisms for the forgiveness of sins and they exclude the baptism of water and so are exceptions for Feeneyite EENS and the Fourth Lateran Council"
4. The Apostles Creed which was recited today at Mass in Italian now says that we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Holy Catholic Church, which now teaches that outside the Church there is salvation but in the past taught outside the Church there was no known salvation. So the Magisterium has produced a new revelation with the false premise in the 1949 LOHO and Vatican Council II (1965).
5.The Athanasius Creed and the Syllabus of Errors which say that all need to be members of the Catholic Church for salvation are now obsolete with the 'exceptions' of this Letter.
6.In the Catechism of Pope Pius X, being saved in invincible ignorance (29Q) refers to a visible example of salvation outside the Church and so contradicts 24Q and 27 Q which says other religions are not paths to salvation and outside the Church there is no salvation. This confusion is created with the false premise also in other catechisms.-L.A
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However, this desire need not always be explicit, as it is in catechumens; but when a person is involved in invincible ignorance God accepts also an implicit desire, so called because it is included in that good disposition of soul whereby a person wishes his will to be conformed to the will of God.
Lionel: What is the point in mentioning all this ? An implicit desire cannot be an objective exception for the dogma EENS in 1949.
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These things are clearly taught in that dogmatic letter which was issued by the Sovereign Pontiff, Pope Pius XII, on June 29, 1943, <On the Mystical Body of Jesus Christ> (AAS, Vol. 35, an. 1943, p. 193 ff.). For in this letter the Sovereign Pontiff clearly distinguishes between those who are actually incorporated into the Church as members, and those who are united to the Church only by desire.
Discussing the members of which the Mystical Body is-composed here on earth, the same august Pontiff says: "Actually only those are to be included as members of the Church who have been baptized and profess the true faith, and who have not been so unfortunate as to separate themselves from the unity of the Body, or been excluded by legitimate authority for grave faults committed."
Toward the end of this same encyclical letter, when most affectionately inviting to unity those who do not belong to the body of the Catholic Church, he mentions those who "are related to the Mystical Body of the Redeemer by a certain unconscious yearning and desire," and these he by no means excludes from eternal salvation, but on the other hand states that they are in a condition "in which they cannot be sure of their salvation" since "they still remain deprived of those many heavenly gifts and helps which can only be enjoyed in the Catholic Church" (AAS, 1. c., p. 243). With these wise words he reproves both those who exclude from eternal salvation all united to the Church only by implicit desire, and those who falsely assert that men can be saved equally well in every religion (cf. Pope Pius IX, Allocution, <Singulari quadam>, in <Denzinger>, n. 1641 ff.; also Pope Pius IX in the encyclical letter, <Quanto conficiamur moerore>, in <Denzinger>, n. 1677).
But it must not be thought that any kind of desire of entering the Church suffices that one may be saved. It is necessary that the desire by which one is related to the Church be animated by perfect charity. Nor can an implicit desire produce its effect, unless a person has supernatural faith: "For he who comes to God must believe that God exists and is a rewarder of those who seek Him" (Heb. 11:6). The Council of Trent declares (Session VI, chap. 8): "Faith is the beginning of man's salvation, the foundation and root of all justification, without which it is impossible to please God and attain to the fellowship of His children" (Denzinger, n. 801).
From what has been said it is evident that those things which are proposed in the periodical <From the Housetops>, fascicle 3, as the genuine teaching of the Catholic Church are far from being such and are very harmful both to those within the Church and those without.
From these declarations which pertain to doctrine, certain conclusions follow which regard discipline and conduct, and which cannot be unknown to those who vigorously defend the necessity by which all are bound' of belonging to the true Church and of submitting to the authority of the Roman Pontiff and of the Bishops "whom the Holy Ghost has placed . . . to rule the Church" (Acts 20:28).
Hence, one cannot understand how the St. Benedict Center can consistently claim to be a Catholic school and wish to be accounted such, and yet not conform to the prescriptions of canons 1381 and 1382 of the Code of Canon Law, and continue to exist as a source of discord and rebellion against ecclesiastical authority and as a source of the disturbance of many consciences.
Lionel: The ecclesiastical authority was saying unknown and invisible cases of the BOD and I.I were objective exceptions for the Fourth Lateran Council on EENS.
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Furthermore, it is beyond understanding how a member of a religious Institute, namely Father Feeney, presents himself as a "Defender of the Faith," and at the same time does not hesitate to attack the catechetical instruction proposed by lawful authorities, and has not even feared to incur grave sanctions threatened by the sacred canons because of his serious violations of his duties as a religious, a priest, and an ordinary member of the Church.
Lionel: Catechetical instruction by the lawful authorities were using a false premise to change the interpretation of the Councils, Creeds and Catechisms. This was dishonest.
_______________________
Finally, it is in no wise to be tolerated that certain Catholics shall claim for themselves the right to publish a periodical, for the purpose of spreading theological doctrines, without the permission of competent Church authority, called the "<imprimatur,>" which is prescribed by the sacred canons.
Lionel : The competent Church authority was rejecting the traditional interpretation of the Fourth Lateran Council and the Council of Florence on EENS by using the irrational premise and inference to produce a heretical and schismatic conclusion.
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Therefore, let them who in grave peril are ranged against the Church seriously bear in mind that after "Rome has spoken" they cannot be excused even by reasons of good faith. Certainly, their bond and duty of obedience toward the Church is much graver than that of those who as yet are related to the Church "only by an unconscious desire." Let them realize that they are children of the Church, lovingly nourished by her with the milk of doctrine and the sacraments, and hence, having heard the clear voice of their Mother, they cannot be excused from culpable ignorance, and therefore to them apply without any restriction that principle: submission to the Catholic Church and to the Sovereign Pontiff is required as necessary for salvation.
Lionel: Pope Pius XII was contradicting Pope Honorious III and St. Dominic Guzman at the times of the Fourth Lateran Council when EENS was defined.Also when the saints and popes over the centuries mentioned BOD and I.I , they were always referring to hypothetical cases.This is a given. BOD and I.I can only be hypothetical and spectulative for us humans. Pope Pius XII made a mistake in this Letter.-Lionel Andrades
https://www.ewtn.com/catholicism/library/letter-to-the-archbishop-of-boston-2076
Bradley Eli at Church Militant TV needs to clarify his position
Church Militant TV has said that the SSPX is in schism. I go for the SSPX Latin Mass in Rome. I also go for Mass in Italian on Sundays. I am not in schism. I accept Vatican Council II and Pope Francis is the pope for me. I accept the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus (EENS) according to the Fourth Lateran Council (1215) and I accept and do not reject hypothetical cases of the baptism of desire, baptism of blood and invincible ignorance. For me Vatican Council II and the Catechism of the Catholic Church has a continuity with the Council of Florence 1442 on the teaching, outside the Church there is no salvation.
Bradley Eli M.Div.,Ma.Th.,at Church Militant TV needs to clarify his position. For me he re-interprets Vatican Council II irrationally, creating alleged exceptions for the dogma EENS according the Fourth Lateran Council etc. So he has produced EENS with exceptions. With visible cases of BOD, BOB and I.I he changes the interpretation of the Nicene Creed and outright makes the Athanasius Creed obsolete. This is first class heresy.
It is schism with pre-1949 popes on the Creeds, Councils and Catechisms. This is the stuff of excommunication over the centuries.- Lionel Andrades
SALVATION AND THE CHURCH
LUKE 13:23: 'LORD, ARE THEY FEW THAT ARE SAVED?'
The Catholic Church infallibly teaches the truth that "Outside the Church, there is no salvation." The Church isn't saying here that only Catholics go to Heaven but that all graces needed for salvation originate in Christ and pass through His Mystical Body, the Church.
Lionel: The Catholic Church is saying here that there are only Catholics in Heaven. If there are non Catholics who are going to Heaven, in Heaven they will only be Catholic. The Church is saying this when Magisterial Documents( Councils, Creeds and Catechisms) are interpreted rationally and not irrationally. Bradley Eli interprets Vatican Council II irrationally.
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Section 846 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church affirms that this dogma does mean "All salvation comes from Christ the head through the Church, which is His body."
Lionel: Yes all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church, which is His Body and all need to enter the Catholic Church with faith and the baptism of water for salvaton ( Ad Gentes 7, Lumen Gentium 14, Catechism of the Catholic Church 845, 846, Fourth Lateran Council (1215) etc). When Vatican Council II and the Catechism of the Catholic Church are interpreted rationally there is no contradiction. There is no rupture with the Fourth Council of Florence (1215) on the strict interpretation of EENS, with no known exceptions.
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Those unable to know this truth have what's called invincible ignorance. A little Jewish girl who dies at the age of 6 might be such a person.
Lionel : Yes there could be someone in invincible ignorance and if the person is to be saved this case would only be known to God. For us humans they are theoretical and speculative. We cannot point out any person and say that this or that person will go to Heaven even if he is in invincible ignorance. We cannot meet or see someone saved in invincible ignorance. They are invisible in our reality. So they are not practical exceptions for the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus ( Council of Florence 1442).
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Of these, Pope Pius IX in his 1863 encyclical, Quanto Conficiamur Moerore, wrote:
It is known to Us and to you that they who labor in invincible ignorance of our most holy religion and who, zealously keeping the natural law and its precepts engraved in the hearts of all by God, and being ready to obey God, live an honest and upright life, can, by the operating power of divine light and grace, attain eternal life, since God ... will by no means suffer anyone to be punished with eternal torment who has not the guilt of deliberate sin.
Lionel: Yes and we cannot project this case of invincible ignorance as an exception for the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus(EENS). It was known to Pope Pius IX that these are theoretical cases and not objective exceptions for the dogma EENS.That these are hypothetical cases is common sense. It was known through the centuries.
It was only in 1949 in the Letter of the Holy Office (CDF) that a mistake was made. It was assumed that invincible ignorance was a visible case. Bradley Eli makes this mistake. This is the common formation- error in the Catholic seminaries and universities all over the world.
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As cited in Denzinger §1677, Pius IX adds:
But, the Catholic dogma that no one can be saved outside the Catholic Church is well known; and also that those who are obstinate toward the authority and definitions of the same Church, and who persistently separate themselves from the unity of the Church, and from the Roman Pontiff, the successor of Peter, to whom "the guardianship of the vine has been entrusted by the Savior," cannot obtain eternal salvation.
Lionel : The 1949 Letter of the Holy Office was placed in the Denzinger by the liberals. It was put there along with its objective mistake. Catholics are not obligated to follow the second part of the 1949 LOHO which contradicts the first part which affirmed traditional EENS. It does this with a fake premise.
The 1949 LOHO is not Magisterial, even though it was accepted by Rahner, Ratzinger, Kung and Congar, since the Holy Spirit cannot make an objective mistake. With this objective mistake, confusing what is invisible as being visible, unknown as being known, alleged practical exceptions were created for the Magisterial interpretation of EENS over the centuries.
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Vatican II repeats this admonition in Lumen Gentium §14: "Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved. ... Not only shall they not be saved but they will be the more severely judged."
Lionel : Yes whoever knows and does not enter is oriented to Hell. But it does not mean that we know of any one in particular who will go to Heaven outside the Church, with invincible ignorance. All people in general need Catholic faith and the baptism of water for salvation (AG 7). All. Those who know and those who do not know, need to accept Jesus in only the Catholic Church for salvation ( to avoid Hell ). Lumen Gentium 14 refers to those ‘who know’ since the Council Fathers, the liberals, interpreted 'being saved in invincible ignorance', irrationally, like the 1949 LOHO. They assumed that the baptism of desire (BOD) and being saved in invincible ignorance (I.I) referred to 'known and visible non Catholics' in 1949-1965 who were saved outside the Catholic Church, without faith and the baptism of water. But the Councils from the 12th to the 16th century are clear. All need to be members of the Church for salvation. All. The word all is also used in Ad Gentes 7. It says all need faith and the baptism of water, for salvation (AG 7, Vatican Council II) The BOD and I.I are not exceptions or relevant for AG 7 or the dogma EENS.
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Religious pluralism (Wikipedia)
The Catholic Church, unlike some Protestant denominations, affirms "developmental theology," understood to mean that the "Holy Spirit, in and through the evolving and often confused circumstances of concrete history, is gradually bringing the Church to an ever more mature understanding of the deposit of faith (the saving truths entrusted by Jesus Christ to the Apostles—these as such cannot be changed or added to). The Church comes to recognize baptism of desire quite early in its history. Later, the Church realizes that Romans 2:14–16, for example, allows for the salvation of non-Christians who do not have unobstructed exposure to Christian teachings: "When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires… They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts…[25] Various forms of "implicit faith" come to hold standing, until at Vatican Council II, the Church declares: "Nor shall divine providence deny the assistance necessary for salvation to those who, without any fault of theirs, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God, and who, not without grace, strive to lead a good life" (#16). Vatican Council II in its Declaration Nostra aetate addresses the non-Christian religions with respect and appreciation, affirming the goodness found in them. Since Vatican Council II, Catholic dialogists in particular are working out the implications of John Paul II's statement, in Redemptor hominis #6 that Christians should recognize "the Holy Spirit operating outside the visible confines of the Mystical Body of Christ." - Religious pluralism, Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_pluralism
Lionel:
The Catholic Church, unlike some Protestant denominations, affirms "developmental theology," understood to mean that the "Holy Spirit, in and through the evolving and often confused circumstances of concrete history, is gradually bringing the Church to an ever more mature understanding of the deposit of faith (the saving truths entrusted by Jesus Christ to the Apostles—these as such cannot be changed or added to). The Church comes to recognize baptism of desire quite early in its history. Later, the Church realizes that Romans 2:14–16, for example, allows for the salvation of non-Christians who do not have unobstructed exposure to Christian teachings: "When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires… They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts…[25] Various forms of "implicit faith" come to hold standing, until at Vatican Council II, the Church declares: "Nor shall divine providence deny the assistance necessary for salvation to those who, without any fault of theirs, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God, and who, not without grace, strive to lead a good life" (#16). Vatican Council II in its Declaration Nostra aetate addresses the non-Christian religions with respect and appreciation, affirming the goodness found in them. Since Vatican Council II, Catholic dialogists in particular are working out the implications of John Paul II's statement, in Redemptor hominis #6 that Christians should recognize "the Holy Spirit operating outside the visible confines of the Mystical Body of Christ." - Religious pluralism, Wikipedia
"developmental theology," understood to mean that the "Holy Spirit, in and through the evolving and often confused circumstances of concrete history, is gradually bringing the Church to an ever more mature understanding of the deposit of faith (the saving truths entrusted by Jesus Christ to the Apostles—these as such cannot be changed or added to).
There cannot be ‘development theology’ by confusing what is invisible as being visible and then projecting alleged practical exceptions for the past ecclesiocentric ecclesiology of the Catholic Church.
The Church comes to recognize baptism of desire quite early in its history. Later, the Church realizes that Romans 2:14–16, for example, allows for the salvation of non-Christians who do not have unobstructed exposure to Christian teachings.
Even the references to the baptism of desire in early history were to hypothetical and speculative cases only. They are not objective cases. This is a given.
). Vatican Council II in its Declaration Nostra aetate addresses the non-Christian religions with respect and appreciation, affirming the goodness found in them. Since Vatican Council II, Catholic dialogists in particular are working out the implications of John Paul II's statement, in Redemptor hominis #6 that Christians should recognize "the Holy Spirit operating outside the visible confines of the Mystical Body of Christ."
Yes the Holy Spirit can act outside the visible confines of the Church (LG 8) and there are good things in other religions. However the religions are not paths to salvation (CDF, Notification on Fr. Jacques Dupuis sj, 2001).Other religions also have errors and superstition, Pope John Paul II tells us in Dominus Iesus.
We also cannot say that a particular will be saved or has been saved outside the visible boundaries of the Catholic Church where the true Church of Christ ‘subsists’ (LG 8).We cannot say that anyone in particular will be saved outside the Church with ‘elements of sanctification and truth in other religions’ (LG 8), good and holy things in other religions (NA 2), imperfect communion with the Church (UR 3) or just being men of goodwill (GS 22).- Lionel Andrades
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https://www.churchmilitant.com/news/article/salvation-and-the-church
Two versions of Feeneyism : Wikipedia needs to be updated
Leonard Edward Feeney (February 18, 1897 – January 30, 1978) was an American Jesuit priest, poet, lyricist, and essayist.
He articulated a strict interpretation of the Roman Catholic doctrine extra Ecclesiam nulla salus ("outside the Church there is no salvation"). He took the position that baptism of blood and baptism of desire are unavailing and that therefore no non-Catholics will be saved - Wikipedia
Lionel :
unavailing : Fr. Leonard Feeney means there are no known and visible cases of the baptism of desire to contradict the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
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Wikipedia
Feeneyism is a Christian doctrine, associated with Leonard Feeney, which advocates an interpretation of the dogma extra Ecclesiam nulla salus ("outside the Church there is no salvation") which is that only Catholics can go to heaven and that only those baptised with water can go to heaven. Feeneyism opposes the doctrines of baptism of desire and baptism of blood as well as the view that non-Catholics can go to heaven.
Feeneyism is considered a heresy by the Catholic Church; some Catholics refer to Feeneyism as the Boston heresy. - Wikipedia
Lionel :
Feeneyism is a Catholic doctrine, associated with Leonard Feeney and the Fourth Lateran Council (12159 and the Council of Florence (1442) which defined extra ecclesiam nulla salus as a dogma of the Catholic Church. These Councils advocate an interpretation of the dogma extra Ecclesiam nulla salus ("outside the Church there is no salvation") which is that only Catholics can go to heaven and that only those baptised with water can go to heaven. If a non Catholic goes to Heaven he will be a Catholic there and not a non Catholic.
Feeneyism does not oppose the doctrines of baptism of desire and baptism of blood but considres them specualtive and hypothetical and known only to God, if they exist . So they do not contradict the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus , which says that in Heaven there are only Catholics.
Feeneyism is considered a heresy by the the Jewish Left and their supporters in the Catholic Church who refer to to Feeneyism as the Boston heresy. Other Catholics refer to the Boston Heresy as the heresy of Pope Pius XII, Cardinal Richard Cushing and the Jesuits. They assumed unknown and invisible cases of the baptism of desire etc were visible and known exceptions for EENS according the the Church Councils in the Middle Ages.- L.ionel Andrades
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CONDEMNATION OF FEENEYISM[EDIT]
In a 1949 letter to Cardinal Cushing, Archbishop of Boston, the Holy Office condemned Feeney's teaching that only those formally baptized in the Catholic Church can be saved. The Holy Office affirmed that those baptized by their desire can be saved. This letter was sent by Cardinal Francesco Marchetti Selvaggiani to Cardinal Cushing. This letter stated among other things:[9][10]
The same in its own degree must be asserted of the Church, in as far as She is the general help to salvation. Therefore, that one may obtain eternal salvation, it is not always required that he be incorporated into the Church actually as a member, but it is necessary that at least he be united to Her by desire and longing. However, this desire need not always be explicit, as it is in catechumens; but when a person is involved in invincible ignorance God accepts also an implicit desire, so called because it is included in that good disposition of soul whereby a person wishes his will to be conformed to the will of God. These things are clearly taught in that dogmatic letter which was issued by the Sovereign Pontiff, Pope Pius XII, on June 29, 1943, On the Mystical Body of Jesus Christ (AAS, Vol. 35, an. 1943, p. 193 ff.). For in this letter the Sovereign Pontiff clearly distinguishes between those who are actually incorporated into the Church as members, and those who are united to the Church only by desire.— Letter of the Holy Office
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feeneyism
Lionel :
Therefore, that one may obtain eternal salvation, it is not always required that he be incorporated into the Church actually as a member
The dogma EENS of the Church Councils says that one needs to be a member of the Catholic Church for salvation and the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith is here saying in this Letter that one does not have to be a member. This is heresy. It is also schism with the Magisterium over the centuries.
The Letter also confuses invisible cases of the BOD, BOB and I.I as visible exceptions for the strict interpretation of EENS, of the Church Councils and Fr. Leonard Feeney. This is irrational. It is also unethical and dishonest. This is a scandal.
Vatican Council II (Wikipedia)
- Second Vatican Council, Dogmatic Constitution Lumen gentium, 14: "They could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it, or to remain in it."
- Second Vatican Council, Dogmatic Constitution Lumen gentium, 16: "Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things, and as Saviour wills that all men be saved. Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience. Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life."
The Catechism of the Catholic Church states that the phrase, "Outside the Church there is no salvation", means, if put in positive terms, that "all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body", and it "is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church".[44]
At the same time, it adds: "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."
The Church has also declared that "she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter", and that "those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways." - Wikipedia
Lionel :
Second Vatican Council, Dogmatic Constitution Lumen Gentium, 14: "They could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it, or to remain in it."
Those who are in invincible ignorance and who are saved are known only to God. So these are not practical exceptions for the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus (EENS). We must not confuse what is invisible as being visible.
Second Vatican Council, Dogmatic Constitution Lumen Gentium, 16: "Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things, and as Saviour wills that all men be saved. Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience. Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life."
Lionel:
Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.
Yes hypothetically and it will include Catholic faith and baptism of water since this the teaching of the Councils, Catechisms and Creeds.
Hypothetical cases must not be projected as being objective exceptions for the dogma EENS in 1949-2023.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church states that the phrase, "Outside the Church there is no salvation", means, if put in positive terms, that "all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body", and it "is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church".
Lionel : Yes all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body and all need to enter the Church with faith and baptism to avoid Hell ( for salvation). There are no physically visible exceptions (Council of Florence etc). Those who through no fault of their own who do not know Christ and His Church also need to enter the Church as members to be saved from Hell. If anyone is saved in invincible ignorance, he or she would only be known to God. In Heaven he or she would be a Catholic. God would provide a preacher to teach them the faith and baptise them, as St. Thomas Aquinas said. The norm for salvation is faith and baptism (AG 7) and not invincible ignorance(LG 14 etc).There are not 'explicit' and 'literal' cases of being saved in invincible ignorance or the baptism of desire.
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Extra ecclesiam nulla salus (Wikipedia)
Strict interpretation[edit]
See also: Feeneyism
Some sedevacantists called Feeneyists (such as the Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary of New Hampshire) believe that only baptized Catholics can be saved. They reject of concept of baptism by desire and baptism of blood, and say that only a properly performed rite with the use of water and the requisite words is sufficient
Lionel : The Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary in New Hampshire, USA are not sedevacantists. They accept Pope Francis as the pope.They believe that only baptised Catholics who live the Catholic Faith and die without mortal sins on their soul can be saved since this is the teaching of the Catholic Church. This is the teaching of the Church in Magisterial Documents interpreted rationally.
This is the teaching of the Fourth Lateran Council (1215) and the Council of Florence (1442) which did not mention any exceptions. The two Councils are not contradicted by hypothetical and unknown cases of the baptism of desire (BOD), baptism of blood(BOB) and being saved in invincible ignorance(I.I).
The two Councils and the BOD, BOB and I.I are interpreted rationally by the Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary. They do not confuse what is invisible as being visible and then project false exceptions for the dogma EENS. So they do not reject BOD, BOB and I.I which can only be hypothetical.They do not project them as exceptions for Feeneyite EENS.- Lionel Andrades
https://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2023/04/two-versions-of-feeneyism-wikipedia.html
How can the Diocese of Manchester in New Hampshire, USA and the Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith, Vatican legally call themselves Catholic when they violate Canon Law and secular law?
https://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2023/04/how-can-diocese-of-manchester-in-new.html
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