Fr.Gerald Murray and Diana Montagna
still interpret Vatican Council II irrationally like the cardinals and bishops
mentioned in their new book
Theoretically we can speculate and say
that there could be salvation outside the Catholic Church since God can do
whatever he wants but practically we cannot say that there is any person who is
an exception for the teaching, on all needing faith and baptism for salvation
(AG 7, LG 14).We cannot judge an exception. This is what the Fundamental
Optionists (Bernard Haring etc) tried to do and were corrected by Pope John Paul II in his encyclical on morals, Veritatis Splendor.
So the norm for salvation is still faith
and baptism (AG 7, LG 14) and so theoretically too, we would say, that this is the normal way God
would choose to save a person from Hell.
So Fr. Leonard Feeney of Boston would
say that all, practically, need Catholic faith and the baptism of water, for
salvation and there are no practical, exceptions. Practically we do not know of
any baptism of desire case or someone who will be saved outside the Church in
invincible ignorance. We cannot know. We know the norm is faith and baptism (John
3:5, Mark 16:16 etc).
So Vatican Council II practically is not
a rupture with the strict interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla
salus and the Syllabus of Errors of Pope Pius IX. Lumen Gentium 16 etc are
always theoretical and never practical cases in the present times. So even theoretically, we cannot
project LG 8, LG 14, LG 16, UR 3, NA 2, GS 22 etc, as being exceptions for
Catholic Tradition (Syllabus of Errors etc).
So Fr. Gerald Murray is not addressing
the issue of Vatican Council II (Rational) not being a rupture with Catholic
Tradition (Athanasius Creed, Catechism of Pope Pius X 24Q, 27Q etc).Cardinal
Gerhard Marx and Cardinal Jean Claude Hollerich justify changing their change in Church teaching, on Vatican Council II (interpreted with a False Premise).It is said by them that if the ecclesiology of the Church with Vatican Council II, everything is open to change in faith and morals.
Pope Benedict would agree with this line of bad reasoning.
1.So in the new book Fr. Gerald Murray
and Diana Montagna do not announce that Cardinal Marx and Cardinal Hollerich
are using the False Premise to interpret Vatican Council II instead of the
Rational Premise and this is unethical.
2.Fr.Murray does not say that there is no change in the ecclesiology of the Catholic Church with Vatican Council II, rational i.e. LG 8, LG 14, LG 16, UR 3, NA 2, GS 22 etc, refer to hypothetical and speculative cases only in 2022.They are not objective cases. They are not personally known non Catholics saved outside the Church in 1965-2022. Invisible cases cannot be visible.
3.So LG 8 etc cannot be practical exceptions for the Athanasius Creed which says all need to be members of the Catholic Church for salvation.
4.Bishop Batzing and the German bishops conference are not asked to affirm the
Syllabus of Errors of Pope Pius IX, the Athanasius Creed and the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus in harmony with
Vatican Council II ( Rational ).
Hollerich and Marx are not told all this
in the new book. What’s the point in writing a book and telling us about what we
read in the leftist mainline newspapers?
Fr. Gerald Murray and Diana Montagna are
also irrational, like those whom they mention in the book. -Lionel Andrades
APRIL 24, 2022
Fr. Gerald Murray & Diane Montagna interpret Vatican Council II with the False and not Rational Premise like their host Matt Fradd
NOVEMBER 28, 2020
We know that Matt Fradd only interviews Cushingites to meet the agenda of his sponsors and to keep the Youtube numbers rising.If he would interview Brother Andre Marie MICM, many of Fradd's misconceptions would be shelved.The tone and content of his interviews would have to be altered.Matt Fradd would not be able to cite Lumen Gentium 16 as an exception to Feeneyite EENS.Brother Andre Marie would point out that LG 16 is a speculative case.So how could it be a practical exception to EENS ?
We know that Matt Fradd only interviews Cushingites to meet the agenda of his sponsors and to keep the Youtube numbers rising.If he would interview Brother Andre Marie MICM, many of Fradd's misconceptions would be shelved.The tone and content of his interviews would have to be altered.
Matt Fradd would not be able to cite Lumen Gentium 16 as an exception to Feeneyite EENS.Brother Andre Marie would point out that LG 16 is a speculative case.So how could it be a practical exception to EENS ? LG 16 does not contradict St. Thomas Aquinas on EENS.An invisible person cannot be a visible exception.
Similarly he will knock off CCC 1257' God is not limited to the Sacraments', Romans 1 and 2 as cited by Ralph Martin, 'all who are saved are saved through Jesus and the Church' which is Pope Benedict's New Theology ( CCC 846), 'elements of sanctification and truth' in other religions (LG 8), 'people of good will' saved outside the Church (GS 22 ) etc. -Lionel Andrades
WEDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 25, 2020
Liberal Pattern of Error : Here is how it works with Matt Fradd
There is a standard approach to error among the Catholic liberals.
Here is how it works with Matt Fradd.
1. They ignore or reject the strict interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus (EENS) as cited by the popes and saints.
2.They will cite a passage from Vatican Council II which they will interpret with a false premise, to create a rupture with Tradition, as mentioned in Number 1 above.
3.They may also quote the Catechism of the Catholic Church also interpreted with the false premise, to contradict Number one above.
4.Then some may cite the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 in which the false premise is used to contradict Feeneyite EENS.
5.So their conclusion is that the Church no more teaches the strict interpretation of EENS and theoretical possibilities are practical exceptions.
LIBERAL EXAMPLE : MATT PRADD
1.St.Thomas Aquinas is never quoted affirming the strict interpretation of extra ecclesiam nulla salus(EENS).
1.(Time 35:10) What does Vatican Council II say about people outside the Church being saved ? Well In Lumen Gentium 16 we do read...yes it is possible that those outside the fold will be saved.
2.(57:25) St. Thomas Aquinas refers to the baptism of desire for someone who has not received the baptism of water.
3.(57:47) Whereby God whose power is not tied to visible Sacraments sanctifies man inwardly.
4.(57:59) Hence St. Ambrose says of his friend the Emperor Valintinian that I lost him but he did not lose the grace he prayed for.
5.God is not bound Sacraments ( Catechism of the Catholic Church 1257).
6.(59:17) Those who have an implicit desire for the baptism of water can also be saved.
-Lionel Andrades
NOVEMBER 25, 2020
Ralph Martin, Scott Hahn, Matt Fradd and the other liberals do not cite St. Thomas Aquinas affirming the strict interpretation of EENS while they cite theoretical possibilities as practical exceptions to Aquinas
THURSDAY, NOVEMBER 26, 2020
Can You Find Salvation Outside the Church? w/ Steve Ray : Matt Fradd uses the false liberal pattern in the interview with a liberal apologist
WEDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 25, 2020
Trent Horn does not affirm the strict interpretation of EENS by St. Thomas Aquinas or the popes and saints. Neither does he interpret Vatican Council II rationally and in harmony with Feeneyite EENS : It is the same with Ralph Martin, Scott Hahn, Matt Fradd, Steve Ray and other liberals
The crisis in the Catholic Church is that Ralph Martin, Scott Hahn, Trent Horn, Steve Ray and Matt Fradd and other liberals do not cite the saints and popes on the strict interpretation of the dogma EENS while they cite hypothetical and speculative possibilities, which exist only in our mind, as being practical exceptions to EENS. This is 'a truth of the faith which is in conflict with the culture' and Ralph Martin and Scott Hahn are not proclaiming it.
ST.THOMAS AQUINAS IS NEVER QUOTED AFFIRMING THE STRICT INTERPRETATION OF THE DOGMA EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS (EENS).
FRIDAY, NOVEMBER 27, 2020
Ralph Martin and Matt Fradd present a list of false premises to contradict the strict interpretation of extra ecclesiam nulla salus which they do not quote
Ralph Martin and Matt Fradd present a list of false premises to contradict the strict interpretation of extra ecclesiam nulla salus which they do not quote.
They present 'possibilities' as being objective exceptions to the necessity of all to be members of the Catholic Church to avoid Hell.
Indirectly and in a subtle way they suggest that there are visible exceptions to the strict interpretation of EENS- the visible exceptions include, Lumen Gentium 16.
Why is LG 16 a visible exception to EENS for Ralph Martin ?
For me it is unethical to present LG 16 as an exception to St. Thomas Aquinas on EENS, as if there is a visible case of a non Catholic saved outside the Church.
But without these 'visible exceptions' Ralph Martin must affirm the strict interpretation of EENS according to Aquinas and Augustine and he and Fradd and Scott Hahn do not want to do this. -Lionel Andrades
If Pope Benedict did not use the false premise he would be a Feeneyite. If he did not use the New Theology he would be affirming 16th century EENS. It is only as a Cushingite that there can be a development of doctrine with Vatican Council II. Similarly for Ralph Martin, Scott Hahn and Matt Fradd, only with hypothetical cases there can be a development of doctrine on EENS. It is only by projecting invisible cases mentioned in Vatican Council II as being physically visible that there is the familiar development of doctrine of the liberals
If Pope Benedict did not use the false premise he would be a Feeneyite.
If he did not use the New Theology he would be affirming 16th century EENS.
It is only as a Cushingite that there can be a development of doctrine with Vatican Council II.
Similarly for Ralph Martin, Scott Hahn and Matt Fradd, only with hypothetical cases there can be a development of doctrine on EENS. It is only by projecting invisible cases mentioned in Vatican Council II as being physically visible that there is the familiar development of doctrine of the liberals. -Lionel Andrades
TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 24, 2020
Ralph Martin and Matt Fradd are liberals since they confuse what is invisible( baptism of desire) as being visible, they confuse what is implicit( saved in inculpable ignorance) as being explicit. They confuse what is subjective (LG 8, UR 3 etc) as being objective and then project practical exceptions to the past exclusive salvation in the Catholic Church, which they do not affirm theologically
By assuming 'possibilities' are real people in the present times and 'practical exceptions' to traditional exclusive salvation in the Catholic Church Pope Benedict created the New Ecumenism, New Theology, New Ecclsiology etc.Now Ralph Martin and Matt Fradd like liberals are doing the same thing
By assuming 'possibilities' are real people in the present times and 'practical exceptions' to traditional exclusive salvation in the Catholic Church Pope Benedict created the New Ecumenism, New Theology, New Ecclsiology etc.Now Ralph Martin and Matt Fradd like liberals are doing the same thing. -Lionel Andrades
FRIDAY, NOVEMBER 27, 2020
St.Thomas Aquinas had a Catholic identity. He affirmed the strict interpretation of extra ecclesiam nulla salus (EENS).He did not project invisible cases of being saved in invincible ignorance as being visible exceptions to traditional exclusive salvation in the Catholic Church. This is common sense. It is common sense that we cannot physically see any exceptions to EENS.This is something obvious in any age. Yet the irrationality, the false premise, is common.It is used by by Matt Fradd, Steve Ray, Tim Staples, Trent Horn, Patrick Coffin and Jimmy Akins
St.Thomas Aquinas had a Catholic identity. He affirmed the strict interpretation of extra ecclesiam nulla salus (EENS).He did not project invisible cases of being saved in invincible ignorance as being visible exceptions to traditional exclusive salvation in the Catholic Church.
This is common sense.
It is common sense that we cannot physically see any exceptions to EENS.This is something obvious in any age.
Yet the irrationality, the false premise, is common.It is used by by Matt Fradd, Steve Ray, Tim Staples, Trent Horn, Patrick Coffin and Jimmy Akins. -Lionel Andrades
WEDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 25, 2020
Ralph Martin, Scott Hahn, Matt Fradd and the other liberals do not cite St. Thomas Aquinas affirming the strict interpretation of EENS while they cite theoretical possibilities as practical exceptions to Aquinas
1.(Time 35:10) What does Vatican Council II say about people outside the Church being saved ? Well In Lumen Gentium 16 we do read...yes it is possible that those outside the fold will be saved.
2.(57:25) St. Thomas Aquinas refers to the baptism of desire for someone who has not received the baptism of water.
3.(57:47) Whereby God whose power is not tied to visible Sacraments sanctifies man inwardly.
4.(57:59) Hence St. Ambrose says of his friend the Emperor Valintinian that I lost him but he did not lose the grace he prayed for.
5.God is not bound Sacraments ( Catechism of the Catholic Church 1257).
6.(59:17) Those who have an implicit desire for the baptism of water can also be saved.
So without confusing possibilities as being real people, we avoid the common false premise and return to Catholic Tradition. There is no room for liberalism and the development of doctrine.
Ralph Martin, Scott Hahn, Matt Fradd and the other liberals do not cite St. Thomas Aquinas affirming the strict interpretation of EENS while they cite theoretical possibilities as practical exceptions to Aquinas.-Lionel Andrades
FRIDAY, NOVEMBER 27, 2020
Matt Fradd only interviews Cushingites and then asks them about extra ecclesiam nulla salus (EENS). Only those who project hypothetical cases as being objective exceptions to the strict interpretation of EENS, are interviewed and cited. Why does not he interview Brother Andre Marie MICM ? Brother Andre Marie told Anthony Flanders in an interview that speculative theology must not be confused with practical theology.
Matt Fradd only interviews Cushingites and then asks them about extra ecclesiam nulla salus (EENS). Only those who project hypothetical cases as being objective exceptions to the strict interpretation of EENS, are interviewed and cited. Why does not he interview Brother Andre Marie MICM ? Brother Andre Marie told Anthony Flanders in an interview that speculative theology must not be confused with practical theology. -Lionel Andrades
TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 24, 2020
Ralph Martin and Matt Fradd do not outright say that all non Catholics, Protestants included, are on the way to Hell.Since the both of them do not affirm the Athanasius Creed, the Syllabus of Errors of Pope Pius IX and 16th century extra ecclesiam nulla salus of the missionaries.They cannot affirm these Church documents since for them 'theoretical and hypothetical possibilities', which exist only in our mind, are 'objective exceptions' to Tradition( e.g Catechism of Pope Pius X ( 24Q,27Q) etc). This was the ruse used by Pope Benedict and Cardinal Ladaria to reject exclusive salvation being there in only the Catholic Church
Ralph Martin and Matt Fradd do not outright say that all non Catholics, Protestants included, are on the way to Hell.Since the both of them do not affirm the Athanasius Creed, the Syllabus of Errors of Pope Pius IX and 16th century extra ecclesiam nulla salus of the missionaries.They cannot affirm these Church documents since for them 'theoretical and hypothetical possibilities', which exist only in our mind, are 'objective exceptions' to Tradition( e.g Catechism of Pope Pius X ( 24Q,27Q) etc).
This was the ruse used by Pope Benedict and Cardinal Ladaria to reject exclusive salvation being there in only the Catholic Church. -Lionel Andrades
THURSDAY, NOVEMBER 26, 2020
Matt Fradd's sponsors want him to use the three point liberal approach to end triumphalism in the Catholic Church.Catholics are fooled with the irrational premise
Matt Fradd's sponsors want him to use the three point liberal approach to end triumphalism in the Catholic Church.Catholics are fooled with the irrational premise.
1) He does not quote the popes and saints on extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
2) He cites Vatican Council II confusing what is implicit as being explicit.
3) With alleged known salvation outside the Catholic Church he concludes that the exclusive salvation of the past is obsolete. At least for him, point number one is obsolete.-Lionel Andrades
TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 24, 2020
Ralph Martin and Matt Fradd are liberals since they confuse what is invisible( baptism of desire) as being visible, they confuse what is implicit( saved in culpable ignorance) as being explicit. They confuse what is subjective (LG 8, UR 3 etc) as being objective and then project practical exceptions to the past exclusive salvation in the Catholic Church, which they do not affirm theologically
Ralph Martin and Matt Fradd are liberals since they confuse what is invisible( baptism of desire) as being visible, they confuse what is implicit( saved in culpable ignorance) as being explicit. They confuse what is subjective (LG 8, UR 3 etc) as being objective and then project practical exceptions to the past exclusive salvation in the Catholic Church, which they do not affirm theologically. -Lionel Andrades
TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 24, 2020
The Holy Office 1949 made an objective mistake and Fr.Leonard Feeney was correct.The baptism of desire and invincible ignorance are not objective exceptions to extra ecclesiam nulla salus(EENS). They are always hypothetical. Pope Paul VI and the Council Fathers(1965) at Vatican Council II made an objective mistake.LG 8, LG 14, LG 16, UR 3, NA 2, GS 22 etc in Vatican Council II are hypothetical and speculative only.They are not objective exceptions to Tradition(EENS etc). Ralph Martin and Matt Fradd make the same mistake as the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 and Pope Paul VI
The Holy Office 1949 made an objective mistake and Fr.Leonard Feeney was correct.The baptism of desire and invincible ignorance are not objective exceptions to extra ecclesiam nulla salus(EENS). They are always hypothetical.
Pope Paul VI and the Council Fathers(1965) at Vatican Council II made an objective mistake.LG 8, LG 14, LG 16, UR 3, NA 2, GS 22 etc in Vatican Council II are hypothetical and speculative only.They are not objective exceptions to Tradition(EENS etc). Ralph Martin and Matt Fradd make the same mistake as the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 and Pope Paul VI.-Lionel Andrades
SUNDAY, DECEMBER 6, 2020
If Matt Fradd interviewed Brother Andre Marie micm, on EENS, Vatican Council II and the Letter of the Holy Office 1949(LOHO) misconceptions would end.He will not be able to project hypothetical and speculative cases as being practical exceptions to EENS, a common mistake
If Matt Fradd would interview Brother Andre Marie micm, on EENS, Vatican Council II and the Letter of the Holy Office 1949(LOHO) the stable will come down and the misconceptions will run away.He will no longer be able to pretend that Lumen Gentium 16 is relevant to EENS or an exception to EENS.He will not be able to project hypothetical and speculative cases as being practical exceptions to EENS.
This is a common mistake among the apologists of Catholic Answers whom he has interviewed on no salvation outside the Church. -Lionel Andrades
TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 24, 2020
Matt Fradd does not quote St.Thomas Aquinas affirming the strict interpretation of extra ecclesiam nulla salus and he presents 'theoretical possibilities' as 'practical exceptions' to the exclusivist ecclesiology of the Catholic Church, which he does not affirm
Matt Fradd does not quote St.Thomas Aquinas affirming the strict interpretation of extra ecclesiam nulla salus and he presents 'theoretical possibilities' as 'practical exceptions' to the exclusivist ecclesiology of the Catholic Church, which he does not affirm. -Lionel Andrades
SATURDAY, NOVEMBER 28, 2020
Thomas Williams at Breitbart News like Ralph Martin, Scott Hahn, Matt Fradd,Bishop Robert Barron and the apologists at Catholic Answers, has to use a false premise to interpret extra ecclesiam nulla salus and Vatican Council II.
Thomas Williams at Breitbart News like Ralph Martin, Scott Hahn, Matt Fradd,Bishop Robert Barron and the apologists at Catholic Answers, has to use a false premise to interpret extra ecclesiam nulla salus and Vatican Council II.
Otherwise Breitbart may not employ him.
Now he does not quote St. Thomas Aquinas and St. Augustine on EENS. He is a liberal like Steve Bannon. -Lionel Andrades
WE HAVE TWO INTERPRETATIONS OF
VATICAN COUNCIL II : YOURS AND MINE
Lionel Andrades
Catholic lay man in Rome. Writer on the discovery of the two interpretations of Vatican Council II, one is rational and the other is irrational, one is interpreted with the false premise and the other without it. One is Magisterial and the other, the common one, is non Magisterial. Vatican Council II is dogmatic and not only pastoral.
It is the same for the Creeds and Catechisms. There can be two interpretations.Catholics must choose the rational option.
Why should Catholics choose an irrational version which is heretical, nontraditional and schismatic, when a rational option is there which is traditional?
Blog: Eucharist and Mission (eucharistandmission)
E-mail: lionelandrades10@gmail.com
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