Wednesday, December 5, 2018
This decides if the average Catholic and the present two popes are in heresy and schism.
Comment from the blog Vox Cantoris
Lionel,
Respectfully, I don't think Ann, Steve Skojec, David and I spend as much time thinking about baptism of blood, baptism of desire and invincible ignorance as you do.
I note this is not the first time you have used David's - and others - blog to push this, to be frank, incessant repetition. Each time you post on here, it comes back to this topic in some fashion. It's wearying.
Ann, Steve Skojec and David clearly think there are more pressing matters than baptisms and invincible ignorance. Look at what they write and speak about. I am no blogger but I am the same way. The Church is in a horrible mess and your topic ranks as very minor on the list of important matters.
Lionel,
Respectfully, I don't think Ann, Steve Skojec, David and I spend as much time thinking about baptism of blood, baptism of desire and invincible ignorance as you do.
I note this is not the first time you have used David's - and others - blog to push this, to be frank, incessant repetition. Each time you post on here, it comes back to this topic in some fashion. It's wearying.
Lionel:
Irenaeus the problem is how do we interpret Vatican Council II and extra ecclesiam nulla salus(EENS). Is Vatican Council II a rupture with EENS as it was interpreted by the missionaries in the 16th century?
Secondly, are BOD, BOB and I.I irrelevant to EENS or a rupture with EENS for you ?
This decides if the average Catholic and the present two popes are in heresy and schism.
Since our premise and inference determines our conclusion.
Since our premise and inference determines our conclusion.
BOD, BOB and I.I are at the center of it and so I have to keep repeating it often.
________________________________Ann, Steve Skojec and David clearly think there are more pressing matters than baptisms and invincible ignorance. Look at what they write and speak about. I am no blogger but I am the same way. The Church is in a horrible mess and your topic ranks as very minor on the list of important matters.
Lionel: For the above names and you, and the present two popes, BOD, BOB and I.l are exceptions to EENS and so Vatican Council II is interpreted as a rupture with EENS.
If BOD, BOB and I.I were not exceptions to EENS and Vatican Council II was not a rupture with the past ecclesiology then we are back to Tradition.
Do you think the popes would accept this ?
Would there be a schism?
If the popes accepted this would the German bishops split with the Church ?
Can a pope deny all this and not be in heresy ? Would his Mass not be a sacrilege for him, even if it valid for others ?
I apologize for coming at you like this, but you decided to address me personally and accuse me of interpreting EENS irrationally.
Lionel: It is common for EENS to be interpreted with BOD, BOB and I.I being exceptions.Are you saying that you are a Feeneyite like me who does not interpret BOD,BOB and I.I as exceptions to EENS?
Are you saying that you do not interpret LG 8, LG 16 etc as exceptions to EENS ?
Of course not!
For me you are irrational since BOD, BOB and I.I do not exist in our reality, they are unknown cases. It is the same with LG 8 etc. You have never commented on this point.
_________________________
I do not take to that sort of accusation well.
Lionel. I refer to Catholic doctrine interpreted with a false premise and inference. Please tell me precisely if I am correct or where I am wrong.
_________________________
Not only was that sort of comment uncharitable, I know perfectly well what EENS is, and what it means in the wider scheme of salvation. I may not have been raised on Church doctrine, but that has been rectified.
Lionel: So please tell me if BOD, BOB and I.I are exceptions to EENS or if they are not exceptions to EENS.
Then if they are exceptions to EENS are you saying there are known non Catholics in 2018 saved outside the Church without faith and baptism ?
Are you also saying that there are known non Catholics saved over the years with elements of sanctification and truth(LG 8), invincible ignorance(LG 16) etc , all with or without the baptism of water ?
Or are you a Feeneyite like me ?
It is common for Catholics to interpret BOD, BOB and I.I as being exceptions to EENS. This is how the SSPX interprets it. You have never denied it.
_____________________________
If I may make a suggestion or two ... it is Advent. David has put up some nice music in the sidebar. Perhaps listen to it. I have been doing so here and there and I find it soothing. It might also be a good time to turn over a new leaf with what you write about - it being a new year liturgically, after all.
Lionel: On the day you posted this and before you sent it to Vox Cantoris I placed some of that Chistmas music on my blog.
Best of luck and best of wishes,
In Christ
Lionel
Would there be a schism?
If the popes accepted this would the German bishops split with the Church ?
Can a pope deny all this and not be in heresy ? Would his Mass not be a sacrilege for him, even if it valid for others ?
I apologize for coming at you like this, but you decided to address me personally and accuse me of interpreting EENS irrationally.
Lionel: It is common for EENS to be interpreted with BOD, BOB and I.I being exceptions.Are you saying that you are a Feeneyite like me who does not interpret BOD,BOB and I.I as exceptions to EENS?
Are you saying that you do not interpret LG 8, LG 16 etc as exceptions to EENS ?
Of course not!
For me you are irrational since BOD, BOB and I.I do not exist in our reality, they are unknown cases. It is the same with LG 8 etc. You have never commented on this point.
_________________________
I do not take to that sort of accusation well.
Lionel. I refer to Catholic doctrine interpreted with a false premise and inference. Please tell me precisely if I am correct or where I am wrong.
_________________________
Not only was that sort of comment uncharitable, I know perfectly well what EENS is, and what it means in the wider scheme of salvation. I may not have been raised on Church doctrine, but that has been rectified.
Lionel: So please tell me if BOD, BOB and I.I are exceptions to EENS or if they are not exceptions to EENS.
Then if they are exceptions to EENS are you saying there are known non Catholics in 2018 saved outside the Church without faith and baptism ?
Are you also saying that there are known non Catholics saved over the years with elements of sanctification and truth(LG 8), invincible ignorance(LG 16) etc , all with or without the baptism of water ?
Or are you a Feeneyite like me ?
It is common for Catholics to interpret BOD, BOB and I.I as being exceptions to EENS. This is how the SSPX interprets it. You have never denied it.
_____________________________
If I may make a suggestion or two ... it is Advent. David has put up some nice music in the sidebar. Perhaps listen to it. I have been doing so here and there and I find it soothing. It might also be a good time to turn over a new leaf with what you write about - it being a new year liturgically, after all.
Lionel: On the day you posted this and before you sent it to Vox Cantoris I placed some of that Chistmas music on my blog.
Best of luck and best of wishes,
In Christ
Lionel
How can a pope interpret Vatican Council II with an irrational premise and inference and then still be a pope ?
Lionel,
It seems not what the point of the post is but you always dominate the comments with EENS.
I'm asking you from henceforth, Brother; stick to the topic or post once on the matter with why rationale or I will be forced to limit you as I have done in the past.
Please.
It seems not what the point of the post is but you always dominate the comments with EENS.
I'm asking you from henceforth, Brother; stick to the topic or post once on the matter with why rationale or I will be forced to limit you as I have done in the past.
Please.
Lionel:
Vox
Thank you for allowing the posts.
The issue is not just EENS and neither is it the baptism of desire, baptism of blood and invincible ignorance.
The issue here is the two popes.
The issue is are they in heresy and do they have the right to be popes.
Is pope Benedict still the pope when he is in manifest heresy, doctrinally and no one contests it?
Can we say that Pope Francis is not the pope because he is in heresy and sacrilege when the traditionalists including Archbishop Lefebvre interpreted Magisterial documents contradicting each other and re-interpreted EENS and Vatican Council II irrationally and no traditionalist has a comment on this subject?
How can a pope interpret Vatican Council II with an irrational premise and inference and then still be a pope ?
Should not Canon Law apply also to the CDF Prefect since on March 1 he irrationally interpreted LG 8 as a rupture with EENS and Ad Gentes 7 at the Placuet Deo Press Conference.n.
Is there not even one traditionalists blogger who can comment theologically and doctrinally on what I write ?
Why should Catholics follow the Leftist interpretation of Vatican Council II just because the popes and Archbishop Lefebvre did so ? What about mortal sins of faith ?....
-Lionel Andradeshttp://voxcantor.blogspot.com/2018/11/the-bergoglian-anti-papacy-by-ann.html
The Archdiocese of Palemo has not precisely stated why is Fr. Alessandro Minutella excommunicated.
From Fr John Hunwicke's blog.
5 December 2018
A very precise explanation should be publicly issued, both in canonical and theological terms, of why such a penalty is being imposed or discerned. Such an explanation should be prepared to run the risk of being too lengthy and too detailed and, if necessary, too technical. It should be utterly clear and should avoid woffly managerial episcobabble and convenient ambivalence, as well as the condescendingly 'clericalist' manner which seems to come so often with the Grace of Episcopacy.
As far as I am aware, Palermo has not done this.
Both the person concerned, and the Holy People of God, have a right to such facts. And if penalties also have the purpose of deterrence, it is proper that other people should know clearly what they should avoid in order not to suffer the same penalty. And academic communities, theological and canonical, should have the materials upon which to base an informed judgement about the validity and prudence of the proceedings. (There is no space for the fuehrerprinzip in a Christian community.)
http://liturgicalnotes.blogspot.com/2018/12/excommunication.html
The Archdiocese of Palemo has not precisely stated why is Fr. Alessandro Minutella excommunicated.
As Fr. John Hunwicke states there should be a very precise explanation both in canonical and theological terms.
The Archdiocese of Palermo cannot speak in theological terms since there are enough posts on the blog to show that the Archbishop and bishops of Palermo are in heresy.
They cannot deny it since they want to be politically correct.
So there leftist excommunications cannot be supported with Catholic doctrine and theology since the same yardstick will be used against them in abundance.
-Lionel Andrades
DECEMBER 2, 2017
Reposts : Cavalcoli tells Minutella to be obedient to heresy : CDF seems politically corrupt
https://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2017/12/reposts-cavalcoli-tells-minutella-to-be.html
DECEMBER 2, 2017
Reposts : According to the past magisterium Abp.Corrado Lorefice would have no right to his office because of heresy and irrationally interpreting magisterial documents
https://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2017/12/reposts-according-to-past-magisterium.html
NOVEMBER 17, 2018
Canon Law must not only apply to Fr.Alessandro M.Minutella but also the bishops of Italy : Bishops of Palermo have committed a mortal sin of faith on EENS, Nicene Creed, Athansius Creed, Vatican Council II, Catechisms etc.Scandal must be ended in public before they administer the Sacraments and offer Holy Mass
https://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2018/11/canon-law-must-not-only-apply-to.html
APRIL 29, 2017
Laity in Palermo must appeal to Corrado Lorefice to follow Canon Law and affirm Church doctrine with a rational theology
https://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2017/04/laity-in-palermo-must-appeal-to-corrado.html
April 28, 2017
It is confirmed at the Archdiocese of Palermo, Italy they use an irrational and false theology to interpret magisterial documents : Canon Law must apply http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2017/04/it-is-confirmed-at-archdiocese-of.html
https://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2017/04/laity-in-palermo-must-appeal-to-corrado.html
April 28, 2017
It is confirmed at the Archdiocese of Palermo, Italy they use an irrational and false theology to interpret magisterial documents : Canon Law must apply http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2017/04/it-is-confirmed-at-archdiocese-of.html
In blow to political correctness, Italy wants crucifixes and nativity scenes in all classrooms
In blow to political correctness, Italy wants crucifixes and nativity scenes in all classrooms
ITALY, December 3, 2018 (LifeSiteNews) – Amid what Italian media is describing as “open war” on school nativity scenes, Italy’s Education Ministry has slapped back, granting approval to installing crucifixes and reinstating nativity scenes in the nation’s classrooms.
“The crucifix is for me the symbol of our history, our culture, our traditions,” said Education Minister Marco Bussetti, speaking to the Federation of Catholic Schools’ annual congress in Rome. “I don't see how it can cause any irritation in our school rooms, on the contrary it may help kids to reflect on our history.”
Bussetti is not alone.
When a school in the city of Terni, northeast of Rome, cancelled its traditional nativity play in order to respect children from other cultures, Italy’s Interior Minister Matteo Salvini slammed the measure as “IDIOCY,” according to a Voice of Europe report.
"It is not just about religion,” said Salvini on Facebook, “but about history, roots, culture. I will not give up.”
“Long live our traditions, and may they spread!” he added.
A representative of the populist Lega Party, Valeria Alessandrini, first brought the situation at the school in Terni to the attention of Italians, saying:
Only by respecting (our own traditions) … can we make others understand everyone is free to practice their own faiths but that it is also required they respect the history and culture of the country in which they live.I hope that children and young people at the school will be allowed to share with their peers and their parents the most beautiful, intense and meaningful moments of Christmas.For years, forces have been at work demanding the removal of all expressions of Christianity from Italian schools in order to respect other cultures. In 2009, the European Court of Human Rights ruled against the presence of crucifixes in Italian classrooms.
https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/in-blow-to-political-correctness-italy-wants-crucifixes-and-nativity-scenes
NOVEMBER 3, 2018
The Catholic politicians in Italy can affirm all the teachings of the Catholic Church without an irrational premise and inference : their conclusion would be different from the Left
https://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2018/11/the-catholic-politicians-in-italy-can.html
NOVEMBER 3, 2018
NOVEMBER 2, 2018
Salvini
Salvini
Salvini - 2
https://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2018/11/salvini-2.html
https://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2018/11/salvini-2.html
NOVEMBER 1, 2018
Austrian government must correct Card, Schonborn's deception : clarification from Parolin needed https://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2018/11/austrian-government-must-correct-card.html
OCTOBER 30, 2018
Hungarian Parliament must note that the divisive Synod on the Youth was Leftist and supported Soros' policies https://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2018/10/hungarian-parliament-must-note-that.html
Hungarian Parliament must note that the divisive Synod on the Youth was Leftist and supported Soros' policies https://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2018/10/hungarian-parliament-must-note-that.html
OCTOBER 8, 2018
In Hungary they do not have to accept the Catechism approved for the teaching for Catholics, by Soros and the Left https://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2018/10/in-hugary-they-do-not-have-to-accept.html
In Hungary they do not have to accept the Catechism approved for the teaching for Catholics, by Soros and the Left https://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2018/10/in-hugary-they-do-not-have-to-accept.html
OCTOBER 10, 2018
OCTOBER 10, 2018
Hungarian Foreign Minister Peter Sjizzarto must tell Cardinal Pietro Parolin to end the Leftist version of Catholicism in Hungaryhttps://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2018/10/hungarian-prime-minister-peter.html
Hungarian Foreign Minister Peter Sjizzarto must tell Cardinal Pietro Parolin to end the Leftist version of Catholicism in Hungaryhttps://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2018/10/hungarian-prime-minister-peter.html
OCTOBER 13, 2017
HUNGARIAN PARLIAMENTARIAN BLASTS ‘SATANIC’ INFLUENCE OF GEORGE SOROS
https://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2017/10/hungarian-parliamentarian-blasts.html
OCTOBER 10, 2018
When the Hungarian Foreign Minister Peter Szijjarto says that Hungarian has been a Christian country for a millennium he means it has been a Catholic country - without the leftist doctrines on salvation of the present- day Vatican
https://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2018/10/when-hungarian-foreign-minister-peter.html
OCTOBER 13, 2017
HUNGARIAN PARLIAMENTARIAN BLASTS ‘SATANIC’ INFLUENCE OF GEORGE SOROS
https://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2017/10/hungarian-parliamentarian-blasts.html
OCTOBER 10, 2018
When the Hungarian Foreign Minister Peter Szijjarto says that Hungarian has been a Christian country for a millennium he means it has been a Catholic country - without the leftist doctrines on salvation of the present- day Vatican
https://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2018/10/when-hungarian-foreign-minister-peter.html
____________________________________________________________________
____________________________________________________________________
OCTOBER 29, 2018
October in Austria
https://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2018/10/october-in-austria.html
_____________________________
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JULY 17, 2017
Catholic political parties must teach Catholics the faith which is not being taught by religious due to political pressure
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2017/07/catholic-political-parties-must-teach.html
MAY 3, 2017
Andrzej Duda President of Poland does not note the split between Church doctrine and State in Poland because of Cushingism http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2017/05/andrzej-dudathe-president-of-poland.html
DECEMBER 19, 2016
Catholics will not vote for the Catholic political parties :The four cardinals are using an irrational philosophy to reject the traditional ecclesiology and interpret Vatican Council II with the same irrationality
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2016/12/catholics-will-not-vote-for-catholic.html
OCTOBER 30, 2016
With Feeneyite Vatican Council II the Catholic Church affirms the Social Reign of Christ the King. http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2016/10/with-feeneyite-vatican-council-ii.html
NOVEMBER 25, 2014
The Council’s words are strong and forthright here, implicitly asserting the sovereignty of Christ over all nations, but we now seldom hear them quoted http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2014/11/the-councils-words-are-strong-and.html
https://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2018/10/october-in-austria.html
_____________________________
_____________________________
JULY 17, 2017
Catholic political parties must teach Catholics the faith which is not being taught by religious due to political pressure
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2017/07/catholic-political-parties-must-teach.html
MAY 3, 2017
Andrzej Duda President of Poland does not note the split between Church doctrine and State in Poland because of Cushingism http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2017/05/andrzej-dudathe-president-of-poland.html
DECEMBER 19, 2016
Catholics will not vote for the Catholic political parties :The four cardinals are using an irrational philosophy to reject the traditional ecclesiology and interpret Vatican Council II with the same irrationality
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2016/12/catholics-will-not-vote-for-catholic.html
OCTOBER 30, 2016
With Feeneyite Vatican Council II the Catholic Church affirms the Social Reign of Christ the King. http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2016/10/with-feeneyite-vatican-council-ii.html
NOVEMBER 25, 2014
The Council’s words are strong and forthright here, implicitly asserting the sovereignty of Christ over all nations, but we now seldom hear them quoted http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2014/11/the-councils-words-are-strong-and.html
Catholic political parties must teach Catholics the faith which is not being taught by religious due to political pressure
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2017/07/catholic-political-parties-must-teach.html
MAY 3, 2017
Andrzej Duda President of Poland does not note the split between Church doctrine and State in Poland because of Cushingism http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2017/05/andrzej-dudathe-president-of-poland.htmlDECEMBER 19, 2016
Catholics will not vote for the Catholic political parties :The four cardinals are using an irrational philosophy to reject the traditional ecclesiology and interpret Vatican Council II with the same irrationality
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2016/12/catholics-will-not-vote-for-catholic.html
OCTOBER 30, 2016
With Feeneyite Vatican Council II the Catholic Church affirms the Social Reign of Christ the King. http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2016/10/with-feeneyite-vatican-council-ii.html
NOVEMBER 25, 2014
The Council’s words are strong and forthright here, implicitly asserting the sovereignty of Christ over all nations, but we now seldom hear them quoted http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2014/11/the-councils-words-are-strong-and.html
Fr.Davide Pagliarani, the new Superior General of the Society of St.Pius X(SSPX) should use my approach in the second round of doctrinal talks with the CDF.
Schism with the past popes is the norm in the Church and the traditionalists like the present popes are a part of it.It requires courage and sacrifice not to be in schism and they do not have it.
It is non-schismatic with the past popes to say Vatican Council II is II is in harmony with EENS.
It is non-schismatic with the past popes to say Vatican Council II is II is in harmony with EENS.
But the schismatic norm today is to say that the Council is break with the past.
It is not schismatic to say that the Catechisms when they mention the baptism of desire(BOD), baptism of blood(BOB) and being saved in invincible ignorance(I.I), do not contradict the Syllabus of Errors on an ecumenism of return.But it is schismatic and common today to say that the Catechisms contradict the Syllabus of Errors.
This was the norm for Pope Pius XII and Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre and the popes and traditionalists since those pre Vatican Council II times.
Today to be non schismatic, a Catholic has to say that he affirms the strict interpretation of the dogma EENS and also hypothetical and invisible cases of BOD, BOB and I.I.
Instead Steve Skojec at the blog 1Peter5 and Hilary White will reject the strict interpretation of the dogma EENS and support visible- for- them BOD,BOB and I.I. It is the same with Ann Barnhardt and Louie Verrecchio.
Bro. Andre Marie MICM and Bro. Thomas Augustine MICM along with the Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary communities interpret Lumen Gentium 8, Vatican Council II as being an exception to Feeneyite EENS. This is schism.
Pope Benedict has said that EENS today is no more like it was for the missionaries in the 16th century.This too is schism.He is saying in public that EENS today is a rupture with the past Magisterium and he supports it.This is also public heresy.
Michael and Peter Dimond like Bishop Sanborn and Fr. Cekada interpret Vatican Council II with an irrational premise and inference to create a schismatic version of the Council. Then they wrongly blame the Council.
So for traditionalists, sedevacantists and liberals the new philosophy is that invisible non Catholics are physically visible. Their new theology is that these visible on earth non Catholics are examples of known salvation outside the Church.There are known non Catholics saved outside the Church and in their religion. So traditional EENS is discarded.On the salvation issue they are in schism with the past popes.
We don't read Chris Ferrara, Michael Matt and Roberto Mattei saying non Catholics need to convert into the Church for salvation and there are no exceptiions,today .Why not? Since there are exceptions for them.Practical exceptions.
If Patrick Archbold wrote the truth it would be schismatic for the political Left, who defacto maintain Catholics in schism.
So for Pope Benedict and Pope Francis not to be in schism, they would have to say that BOD,BOB and I.I do not contradict EENS. Neither does LG 8, LG 14, LG 16, UR 3, NA 2, GS 22 etc contradict EENS.So the past ecclesiology, an ecumenism of return and the proclamation of the Social Reign of Christ the King is still intact after Vatican Council II.But the popes choose schism.
When John Salza and Robert Siscoe like Bishop Fellay support Pope Francis, they are schismatic.
I choose not to be in schism with the past popes and so for me Vatican Council II does not contradict EENS and neither does BOD,BOB and I.I refer to known non Catholics saved outside the Church.So for me Fr. Leonard Feeney was rational and traditional on EENS while the Holy Office(CDF) 1949 was in heresy and schism.It is the same with the CDF today.It is schismatic on EENS and Vatican Council II.
No one can accuse me of being in heresy since I am affirming all Magisterial documents but in a non schismatic way. John Lament, Thomas Pink, John Rao and Joseph Shaw also affirm all magisterial documents but with an irrational premise and inference to produce a schismatic conclusion.
Fr.Davide Pagliarani, the new Superior General of the Society of St.Pius X(SSPX) should use my approach in the second round of doctrinal talks with the CDF.
-Lionel Andrades
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