Discussion with a Carmelite priest

  

I had an interesting discussion yesterday with a Carmelite priest at their church near the Vatican.

He wanted to know why I say outside the Church there is no salvation.So I cited Vatican Council II ( AG 7, LG 14) and the Catechism of the Catholic Church ( 845,846).

I explained that LG 8, 14 and 16, UR 3, NA 2, GS 22 etc refer to physically invisible cases in 2023. So they could not be practical exceptions for AG 7, LG 14, CCC 845,846 etc.

The Council is only Feeneyite and not Cushingite. Vatican Council II is traditional for me.So based upon Vatican Council II,  I say extra ecclesiam nulla salus (EENS).

We agreed that there was only one Revelation and no new revelation. So LG 8,14 and 16, UR 3, NA 2, GS 22 etc interpreted irrationally was a not a new revelation in the Church. It could not contradict the dogma EENS.There are no physically visible examples of salvation outside the Church for us human beings. So the Council is not ‘ a new revelation’ or 'a revolution'.

A lot of this was new for him. He had a doctorate and no one had told him about all this.

This was also the teachings of the popes and saints over the centuries. It is now supported by Vatican Council II and the Catechism of the Catholic Church.They are supported by the Conciliar Church, the post-Vatican Council II Church, only when Vatican Council II is interpreted rationally and  not irrationally.

WHEN I MEET A HINDU OR BUDDHIST

 So I told him that when I meet a Hindu or Buddhist I know he or she is oriented to Hell without ‘faith and baptism’ (AG 7, LG 14, CCC 845,846, 1257 etc).This is what the Catholic Church teaches in its Magisterial Documents.These are the Documents before and after Vatican Council II. So this is not just a personal view. It can be verified with Church Documents.

I could provide references. However those who say that outside the Church there is salvation cannot do so. They can only cite Vatican Council II if they confuse invisible cases as being visible.

The Catholic Church in its Magisterial Documents today teaches that other religions are not paths to salvation.

 However, from what has been stated above about the mediation of Jesus Christ and the “unique and special relationship”‌⁸⁴ which the Church has with the kingdom of God among men - which in substance is the universal kingdom of Christ the Saviour - it is clear that it would be contrary to the faith to consider the Church as one way of salvation alongside those constituted by the other religions, seen as complementary to the Church or substantially equivalent to her, even if these are said to be converging with the Church toward the eschatological kingdom of God.-  Dominus Iesus n.21, 2000, Pope John Paul II

 

If it is true that the followers of other religions can receive divine grace, it is also certain that objectively speaking they are in a gravely deficient situation in comparison with those who, in the Church, have the fullness of the means of salvation.- Dominus Iesus n.22.

Pope John Paul II also said in Dominus Iesus that other religions have errors, superstition and deficiencies.They are not an equal path to salvation as the Catholic Church.

Dominus Iesus also says that salvation is open for all, it is universal, in potential, but membership in the Church is also necessary for salvation. The institutional Church is  necessary.

Cardinal Ratzinger said that the members of other religions are oriented to the Catholic Church (CDF, Notification on Fr. Jacques Dupuis sj, 2001 during the pontificate of Pope John Paul II).Nostra Aetate 4 says Catholics are the new people of God.

 They are the elect. They are the new Chosen People. They have the Messiah promised by the Jewish prophets.

So when I read the Catechisms, I am told that non Christians will be lost forever to Hell unless they accept Jesus in the Catholic Church ( Catechism of Pope Pius X (24 Q, 27Q),Catechism of the Catholic Church ( 845,846,1257).

Most people on earth are going to Hell is the constant teaching of the Catholic Church. Jesus said enter through the narrow gate for the road to Hell is wide and most people take it (Matthew 7:13-14).

Jesus told Louisa Piccaretta that most people go to Hell.Most people are damned.

This was also the teaching of the Carmelite saints. St. Teresa of Avila said Lutherans are going to Hell.

The Orthodox Christian Church does not accept Catholic teachings and Sacraments. For them we are in schism. We did not discuss this subject yesterday.

I told this good Carmelite priest that I accept Pope Francis’ Fratelli Tutti and I love non Catholics and non Christians because this is what Jesus asks of us.

I support inter-religious dialogue and ecumenism.I would interpret Vatican Council II and the Creeds, Catechisms and Councils, rationally. So dialogue would be part of the traditional mission of the Catholic Church.This is recommended by Pope John Paul II in Dominus Iesus.

 It would be mission for me, which would not only be Christocentric but also ecclesiocentric. It would be traditional mission of the 16th century missionaries based upon there being exclusive salvation in only the Catholic Church and supported by Vatican Council II.

I say all this in Rome where there is a Concordat.The Catholic religion has a historical and special status. This is a Catholic country.It's Constitution allows the freedom of religious worship and expression for Catholics.

I am affirming the Magisterium of the Catholic Church.This is the Magisterium  according to Church Documents and Church teachings of the popes up to John Paul II and Benedict XVI. Pope Francis denies the dogma EENS, when he interprets Vatican Council II irrationally. So he has changed the interpretation of the Creeds. This is first class heresy according to Ad Tuendem Fidem of Pope John Paul II.

Pope John Paul II was  Magisterial in Ecclesia di Eucharestia when he stated that Orthodox Christians who do not accept the Catholic pope should not receive the Eucharist. He was saying that outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation. This is also the message of Vatican Council II (AG 7, LG 14) I repeat.

Pope Francis and the cardinals and bishops would be Magisterial on Vatican Council II only when they interpret the Council rationally. They are irrational presently.

When they interpret the Creeds, Councils and Catechisms irrationally they are not magisterial. Instead they are heretical and schismatic. This is a mortal sin of faith.

They are also unethical when they choose an irrational premise (invisible people are visible, LG 16 refers to a visible non Catholic saved outside the Church), irrational inference (LG 8, 14, 16 etc are visible examples of salvation outside the Church and so are objective exceptions for the dogma EENS) and  non-traditional conclusion (Vatican Council II is a rupture with Tradition, EENS, original interpretation of the Creeds etc). 

I am ethical when I choose a rational premise (invisible people are invisible, LG 16 refers to an invisible non Catholic saved outside the Church), irrational inference (LG 8, 14, 16 etc are invisible examples of salvation outside the Church and so are non objective. Invisible cases cannot be practical exceptions for the dogma EENS. I choose the rational and  non-traditional conclusion (Vatican Council II is not a rupture with Tradition ( EENS, original interpretation of the Creeds etc).It has the hermeneutic of continuity with the Fourth Lateran Council II ( 1215) and the Council of Florence (1442)  which defined the dogma EENS.

- Lionel Andrades

Archbishop Emeritus Kevin McDonald of Southwark implies the 'seeds of the Word' in other religions is the ordinary means of salvation and these exceptions are explicitly known

 

 NOVEMBER 1, 2011

Archbishop Emeritus Kevin McDonald of Southwark implies the 'seeds of the Word' in other religions is the ordinary means of salvation and these exceptions are explicitly known

The Conference of Catholic Bishops of England and Wales webite rejects the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus, Vatican Council II (LG 14, AG 7) and Dominus Iesus.The English bishops are changing the Catholic Church’s teaching on Faith just as they have done so on morals.
According to Archbishop Emeritus Kevin McDonald of Southwark who is the Chair of the Committe for Relations with Other Religions the ‘seeds of the Word’ are present in other religions implying that we know of particular cases so every non Catholic with no exception does not have to enter the Church for salvation. This is the rejection of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus and Vatican Council II (Lumen Gentium 14, Ad Gentes 7).

The report placed by the Committee for Relations with Other Religions contradicts Daphne McLeod, Chairman of Pro Ecclesia et Pontifice,England. Her message is that the possible exceptions in Vatican Council II are not exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.(1).

Vatican Council II does not oppose the centuries-old interpretation of the dogma outside the church there is no salvation.The  possibility of non Catholics saved in invincible ignorance,the baptism of desire, or the ‘seeds of the Word’ as the Bishops state here, does not contradict the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus which tells us that every one needs to convert into the Church for salvation. It is understood that these cases, saved by the 'seeds of the Word' are known only to God.

Non Catholic religions are not paths to salvation and their members need to enter the Catholic Church to avoid Hell. This is the teaching of the Catholic Church before and after Vatican Council II. This is the important point omitted by the Catholic Bishops Conference.Daphne McLeod is affirming the dogma which Pope Pius XII called ‘the infallible teaching’ (Letter of the Holy Office 1949).

This was the interpretation of the Church Fathers, it was defined at three Church Councils, repeated in the ordinary magisterium of the popes, taught by numerous saints and included in Vatican Council II (LG 14, AG 7).

The website says ‘As Catholics we believe that Christ lived,died and rose from the dead for all people and that God’s plan of love embraces the whole of creation.’ This is a contradiction of Dominus Iesus 20 which says Jesus died for all, however to receive this salvation all need to enter the Church.

The website says ‘We can joyfully accept ,as was recognized by the Fathers of the Church, that other religions contain elements of truth that we find in Christ.’ Dominus Iesus mentions that other religions also contain ‘errors, deficiences and superstition’, which we cannot attribute to Christ or the Holy Sprit.

Also the Church Fathers no where said that non Catholic religions are the ordinary means of salvation. The ordinary means of salvation is the Catholic Church (Redemptoris Missio 55). Vatican Council II indicates that the ordinary means of salvation is Catholic Faith and the baptism of water (LG 14, AG 7).It is not 'the seeds of the Word'.

The English bishops are denying an ex cathedra dogma Cantate Domino, Council of Florence 1441 which Venerable Pope Pius XII called an ‘infallible teaching’ (Letter of the Holy Office 1949). They are also rejecting Vatican Council II (LG 14, AG 7) and assuming that the hypothetical exceptions that we accept in principle, are defacto known to us and so contradict a traditional teaching of the Church. They are also implying that the ‘seeds of the Word’ found in other religions is the ordinary means of salvation.

The English bishops are changing the Catholic Church’s teaching on Faith just as they have done so on morals.(2).

Pope John Paul II’s encyclical on morals, Veritatis Splendor, says that an intrinsically evil act is always a mortal sin, even if one suggests that the person is not aware of the sin. Veritatis Splendor is clear that there is no 'invincible doubt'. Also rationally we know that we cannot judge who has an 'invincible doubt'.Veritatis Splendor says that the exterior action indicates the interior intention.It calls mortal sin a mortal sin. 

The bishops are now suggesting that we know who is saved with  the ‘seeds of the Word’. A possible exception known only to God is made the general rule.-Lionel Andrades

1.

As Catholics we believe that Christ lived, died and rose from the dead for all people and thatGod’s plan of love embraces the whole of creation. We can joyfully accept ,as was recognized by the Fathers of the Church,that other religions contain elements of truth that we find in Christ.The Fathers of the Church called these elements “seeds of the Word”.The Vatican Council II attributed the positive values present in other religious traditons to the actibe presence of God through through his Word,pointing also to the universal action of the Spirit “at work in the world before Christ was glorified”.(Ad Gentes n.4).-Catholics and Other Faiths report on the website of the Catholic Bishops Conference of England and Wales.

2.

14. Homosexuals have the same need for the Sacraments as the heterosexual. They also have the same right to receive the Sacraments. In determining whether or not to administer Absolution or give Communion to a homosexual, a pastor must be guided by the general principles of fundamental theology, that only a certain moral obligation may be imposed. An invincible doubt, whether of law or fact, permits one to follow a true and solidly ‘probable opinion’ in favour of a more liberal interpretation. - According to the Archdiocese of Westminister Soho Mass Pastoral Council announcement on the Internet

SOHO MASS - CONTRADICTS CATECHISM AND VERITATIS SPLENDOR

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2009/10/soho-mass-two-different-moral-and.html#links

NON CATHOLICS CAN BE SAVED IN INVINCIBLE IGNORANCE, BAPTISM OF DESIRE AND IT DOES NOT CONTRADICT THE DOGMA EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS- Daphne McLeod, Pro Ecclesia et Pontifice, England

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/10/non-catholics-can-be-saved-in.html

Nostra Aetate does say that the Church is the' new people of God'. Catholics are the Chosen People.They have the Promised Jewish Messiah, the Eternal Covenant and the Sacrifice of the Holy Mass

 

MARCH 28, 2012

Nostra Aetate does say that the Church is the' new people of God'. Catholics are the Chosen People.They have the Promised Jewish Messiah, the Eternal Covenant and the Sacrifice of the Holy Mass

Nostra Aetate does say that the Church is the' new people of God'. Catholics are the Chosen People.They have the Promised Jewish Messiah, the Eternal Covenant and the Sacrifice of the Holy Mass. 

Nostra Aetate does not say that non Catholics are saved in general in their religion or that they do no need to convert. If it did, it would contradict Ad Gentes 7, which says all need Catholics Faith and the baptism of water for salvation.

 How can there by a theology of religions with the Jews when the Church teaches that they are all oriented to Hell unless they convert into the Catholic Church ?. This is a reference to the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 issued by Pope Pius XII to the Archbishop of Boston. The tension there was with the Jews.The Letter referred to 'the dogma', the 'infalllible teaching'. The dogma says specifically that Jews need to convert to avoid the fires of Hell.(Cantate Domino, Council of Florence 1441).

International Theological Commission (ITC)-Christianity and the World Religions 1997

100. Faced with the historical, epistemological or theological oversimplification of the relationship between Christianity and the other religions in the pluralist theology, it is necessary to take as our point of departure the different vision of the religions in the declaration Nostra Aetateof Vatican Council II. It describes what the religions of the world have in common, to wit, the attempt "to counter the restlessness of the human heart, each [religion] in its own manner, by proposing 'ways', comprising teachings, rules of life, and sacred rites" (no. 2), but without denying differences that are equally fundamental: The different forms of Buddhism show man ways through which he perceives the meaning of being by recognizing the radical insufficiency of this contingent world; in the richness of the myths of Hinduism, in its ascetical practices and deep meditations is expressed the trusting search of a refuge in God. With Islam, the Church has more in common, since it recognizes that its followers "adore the one God ... the Creator of heaven and earth" (NA 3).

Lionel: There are good and holy things in other religions but the religions are not paths to salvation. All their members, with no known exception, need to convert into the Catholic Church to avoid Hell.(AG 7,LG 14).We may have much in common with Catholics as Catholics. However if there are Catholics in mortal sin at the time of death they are oriented to Hell.

Buddhists and Hindus need to convert for salvation and Muslims who adore the one God are oriented to Hell.(AG 7,LG 14).God is one. There is one Creator for all- but Hell exists.

ITC

Recognizing in total clarity what separates us, we cannot, nonetheless, ignore common elements in history and in doctrine. Christianity is united with Judaism in its origin and in their rich common heritage. The history of the covenant with Israel, the confession of the one and only God who reveals himself in that history, the hope in God who comes and in his future kingdom—all this is common to Jews and Christians (cf NA 4). A Christian theology of the religions must be able to express theologically the common elements and the differences between its own faith and the convictions of different religious groups.

Lionel: How can there by a theology of religions with the Jews when the Church teaches that they are all oriented to Hell unless they convert into the Catholic Church. This is a reference to the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 issued by Pope Pius XII to the Archbishop of Boston. The tension there was with the Jews.The Letter referred to 'the dogma', the 'infalllible teaching'. The dogma says specifically that Jews need to convert to avoid the fires of Hell.(Cantate Domino, Council of Florence 1441).

Nostra Aetate does not say that non Catholics are saved in general in their religion or that they do no need to convert. If it did, it would contradict Ad gentes 7, which says all need Catholics Faith and the baptism of water for salvation.

Nostra Aetate does say that the Church is the' new people of God'. Catholics are the Chosen People.They have the Promised Jewish Messiah, the eternal covenant and the Sacrifice of the Holy Mass.

ITC

The council situates the task in a tension between two aspects: On the one hand, it contemplates the unity of the human race based on a common origin (NA 1). For this reason, anchored in the theology of creation, "the Catholic Church rejects nothing that is true and holy in these religions" (NA 2). But on the other hand, the same Church insists on the necessity to announce the truth which is Christ himself: "Indeed, she [the Church] proclaims, and ever must proclaim Christ 'the way, the truth, and the life' (Jn 14:6), in whom men may find the fullness of religious life, in whom God has reconciled all things to Himself (2 Cor 5:18—19)" (NA 2).

Lionel: The Church proclaims Christ within the Catholic Church only.The Catholic Church only is the Mystical Body of Christ and not the other churches and denominations. There can be elements of sanctification outside the Church's visible boundaries but this would be known only to God.Only God can judge we cannot assume that everything is good and holy in other religions.Other religions have 'deficiencies, errors and superstition' too,says Dominus Iesus. Dominus Iesus and the Notification on Fr.Jacques Dupuis reject the theology of religions.

Lionel Andrades

1.
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/cti_documents/rc_cti_1997_cristianesimo-religioni_en.html

Tuesday, March 27, 2012
The International Theological Commission's position paper Christianity and the World Religions 1997 has an objective factual error and is approved by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger : invincible ignorance is not an exception to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2012/03/international-theological-commissions.html#links

Monday, March 26, 2012
INTERNATIONAL THEOLOGICAL COMMISSION ASSUMES ‘SEEDS OF THE WORD’ (VATICAN COUNCIL II ) IN OTHER RELIGIONS ARE KNOWN TO US AND THIS IS AN EXPLICIT EXCEPTION TO THE DOGMA EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2012/03/international-theological-commission.html#links

VATICAN'S INTERNATIONAL THEOLOGICAL COMMISSION MAKES AN ERROR IN ITS POSITION PAPER CHRISTIANITY AND THE WORLD RELIGIONS
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2012/03/vaticans-international-theological.html#links

Prof. Gavin D'Costa on the Bishop's Conference website infers Vatican Council II cites explicit exceptions to extra ecclesiam nulla salus

 

THURSDAY, APRIL 24, 2014

Prof. Gavin D'Costa on the Bishop's Conference website infers Vatican Council II cites explicit exceptions to extra ecclesiam nulla salus

Conference of Bishops of England and Wales infers there are exceptions to the traditional teaching on exclusive salvation in the Catholic Church.

There is no text in Vatican Council II which states there are known exceptions yet this is taken for granted by the Bishops.

 

It is an objective error to assume that the deceased saved with 'seeds of the Word' or ' a ray of that Truth' can be named or seen physically.

 

Professor Gavin D'Costa on the website of the Catholic Bishops Conference of England and Wales infers that those saved with 'rays of light' found in other religions(NA 2) and seeds of the Word (AG 11) mentioned in Vatican Council II refer to cases visible to us in real life.Since they are explicit for him he infers that they are exceptions to the traditional teaching on exclusive salvation in the Catholic Church.

 

There is no text in Vatican Council II including NA 2 and AG 11 which states that these cases are explicit for us in 2014 or that they are known exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus, defined by three Church Councils.Yet the English professor assumes that there are such text.

 

All salvation mentioned in Vatican Council II is implicit for us and explicit only for God. So hypothetical cases, accepted as possibilities of salvation cannot be objective, known exceptions to traditional teaching on other religions and Christian communities.

 

On the video of the Bishop's Conference website Gavin D'Costa makes a factual error when he assumes that the deceased  saved with 'seeds of the Word' or 'a ray of that one Truth'  are visible to the naked eye. He cannot name any such person in England who has been saved or will be saved.This is irrational.

 

Professor Gavin D'Costa:

What does the Catholic Church officially think of other religions, some positive and some negative(3:38). The questions often asked are "Is my Hindu friend saved?"(3:58), or "Can a non Catholic or Christian be saved?"(4:04).

 

Lionel:

Yes as a possibility.However it is not to be infered that we know any such case. The ordinary means of salvation is 'faith and baptism' (Ad Gentes 7, Vatican Council II). Nostra Aetate 2 ( a ray of the Truth) is not the ordinary means of salvation.Neither do we know of any case in particular who does not need faith and baptism for salvation .He should not imply  that implicit for us cases are visible and so become exceptions.

Professor Gavin D'Costa:

He then says that Vatican Council II (4:08) "taught very clearly and unambigously that Yes, a person can be saved who is not a member of the Catholic Church.and in that sense it emphasized God's grace and love towards all people the desire for God to reach out to whoever seeks God in whatever way they can".

Lionel:

Yes hypothetically a person can be saved who is not a member of the Catholic Church. In reality we do not know any such case. We do not know if there were one or two such cases in 2014 or if there was no such case. He is infering here that we do know such cases and so this is relevant to the traditional teaching which states that all non Catholics are on the way to Hell unless they enter the Catholic Church.
 

Professor Gavin D'Costa:

He then says that "this is not relativisation of Catholicism saying it is one among other religions.Since the Council also taught that the Catholic Church is the true Church in the sense that Jesus Christ is the self Revelation of God and that is how God has come to speak to us ".

 

Lionel:

He only refers to Jesus being the Saviour in the sense that he is the Saviour of all who are saved. He ignores Ad Gentes 7 which says all need faith and baptism. He ignores the necessity to be a visible member of the Catholic Church (with faith and baptism) for salvation.

If someone is saved in another religion it would not be known to D'Costa. So this case would not be an exception to all needing faith and baptism in England to go to Heaven.

Prof.D'Costa does not say this since he infers that those saved in other religions through Jesus and the Church, are known exceptions.

CCC 847 and 848 contradict CCC 846 for him and AG 7 is contradicted by NA 2 and AG 11 since these implicit for us cases are assumed to be explicit. 

Professor Gavin D'Costa:

"People are not damned if they are not Catholics" (5:09)

 

Lionel:

According to Vatican Council II (AG 7) they are damned if they are not Catholics, since all need faith and baptism for salvation and they do not have it. According to CCC 846 and AG 7 all need to enter the Church as through a door.This is an affirmation of Outside the Church There is No Salvation.

 

Professor Gavin D'Costa:
The second point he makes

What does the Church think of other religions he asks and says " Nostra Aetate produced in Vatican II said the following which is well worth remembering 'there are elements of truth goodness and beauty and seeds and rays of light to be found in these other religions.

 

Lionel:

No where in Vatican Council II are these invisible- for- us cases claimed to be visible for us. So one can not infer that they are exceptions.

 

Professor Gavin D'Costa:

 He then says Pope John Paul II taught that the Holy Spirit is present in these religions (5:53)

 

Lionel:

Pope John Paul II also said in Dominus Iesus that other religions have errors and superstition and they are not an equal path to salvation as the Catholic Church.

The Holy Spirit can be present in other religions but we cannot say that any one has been saved in other religion through the Holy Spirit.

-Lionel Andrades

Video Professor Gavin D'Costa. Catholicism and Other Faiths 

 http://www.cbcew.org.uk/CBCEW-Home/Departments/Dialogue-and-Unity/Other-Religions

 

If the Bishop's Conference did not use this irrationality the Catholic Church in England and Wales would have to affirm extra ecclesiam nulla salus in accord with the Catechism and Vatican Council II

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2014/04/if-bishops-conference-did-not-use-this.html#links

If the Bishop's Conference did not use this irrationality the Catholic Church in England and Wales would have to affirm extra ecclesiam nulla salus in accord with the Catechism and Vatican Council II

 

APRIL 23, 2014

If the Bishop's Conference did not use this irrationality the Catholic Church in England and Wales would have to affirm extra ecclesiam nulla salus in accord with the Catechism and Vatican Council II

Here is a passage from the website of the Bishop's Conference of England and Wales.It assumes that Nostra Aetate 2  ( a ray of the one Truth) refers to something visible and known in 2014. It infers that those saved with 'a ray of the one Truth' are personally known and visible  in 2014. Since these deceased-saved with a 'ray of the one Truth' are allegedly explicit, objectively seen in England, they are known exceptions to the traditional interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. So for the Bishop's Conference Nostra Aetate is a break with the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus, the Catechism of Pope Pius X and the Syllabus of Errors.

Summary: The Vatican II document Nostra Aetate gave new life to the Church’s relationship with other religions. Members of other religions were presented as people with whom Christians should engage in dialogue and collaboration, and from whose spiritual lives inspiration can be drawn. This relationship has been actively fostered, particularly by recent Popes who have further expounded Church teaching through their pronouncements and actions.

The Church has different relationships with each religion, but first among these is the relationship with the Jewish people. The Church’s roots are in the history of God’s relationship with the Jewish people. Nostra Aetate makes clear that the Jews remain especially beloved by God and categorically rejects all forms of anti-Semitism.

Nostra Aetate recognises that there are elements of truth and holiness in other religions and acknowledges that the Holy Spirit is at work in them. Other religions contain ‘seeds of the Word’ and ‘a ray of the one Truth’. God’s good plan, and the promise of eternal life, applies to every human being. At the same time, Christ is the only one through whom it is possible to come to this eternal life. What is true and holy in other religions does not replace the Good News of Chris-tianity, but can create a fertile environment for it.

http://www.cbcew.org.uk/CBCEW-Home/Departments/Dialogue-and-Unity/Other-Religions/Bishops-Document

If the Bishop's Conference assumed that  'a ray of the one Truth'(NA 2) was invisible for us and known to only God then NA 2 would not contradict extra ecclesiam nulla salus and Tradition. It is based on this irrationality of being able to see the dead on earth saved with a 'ray of the one Truth' that the Bishops Conference can deny the dogma on exclusive salvation.

 

If the Bishop's Conference   did not use this irrationality the Catholic Church in England and Wales  would have to affirm extra ecclesiam nulla salus in accord with the Catechism and Vatican Council II(Nostra Aetate etc).

 Here is another passage from the Bishop's Conference website with the irrational inference.

CAN GOD SAVE THOSE OUTSIDE THE CHURCH? Yes! The Church teaches that the saving grace of Christ is present outside the visible confines of the Church, in the work of the Holy Spirit bestowed on others and is still related to Christ and the Church.from MGFS Summary Leaflet (Leeds) available on the Bishop's Conference website.   

 Here the Bishop's Conference again implies that those saved outside the visible confines of the Church' are physically visible to us.It is irrational to assume that these cases can be seen in the flesh and then to go ahead and build a fantasy theology upon this irrational observation.

'The Church affirms the unity of all humanity and recognises the God-given presence of truth and holiness in other religions' the Bishop's Conference  states ignoring Dominus Iesus of Pope John Paul II. Dominus Iesus  says other religions have errors and superstition and 'it would be contrary to the faith to consider the Church as one way of salvation alongside those constituted by other religions, seen as complimentary to the Church or substantially equivalent to her'.

1.If they did not use this irrationality, then the Bishop's Conference, like Bishop Michael Campbell, the Bishop of Lancaster,   would be affirming the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus as being in accord with the Catechism (1993) and Vatican Council II.
 

2 Since the Bishop's Conference  uses this irrationality, on the website of the Lancaster diocese  it is not stated that there is exclusive salvation in the Catholic Church. 
 

3 In no document of Pope Pius XII is it stated that there are known exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. Yet this error is implied in all the dioceses of England and Wales. It is part of the Catholic Certificate in Religious Studies Course (CCRS).It is part of Catechesis and adult education of the Catholic Faith.
-  Lionel Andrades 

 

No known exceptions in Nostra Aetate to extra ecclesiam nulla salus

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2013/10/no-known-exceptions-in-nostra-aetate-to.html#links

 

CCBEW ECUMENICAL OFFICERS, CATECHISTS AGREE THAT THE BAPTISM OF DESIRE IS NOT AN EXCEPTION TO THE DOGMA OUTSIDE THE CHURCH THERE IS NO SALVATION

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/12/ccbew-ecumenical-officers-catechists.html

 Without the Richard Cushing Error Archbishop Vincent Nichols would have to say all the Muslims in London need to convert into the Church for salvation

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2013/07/without-richard-cushing-error.html#links

ARCHDIOCESE OF WESTMINISTER USES RICHARD CUSHING ERROR IN FAITH AND MORALS  

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2013/07/archdiocese-of-westminister-uses.html#links

 

The International Theological Commission's position paper Christianity and the World Religions 1997 has an objective factual error and is approved by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger : invincible ignorance is not an exception to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2012/03/international-theological-commissions.html#links

Monday, March 26, 2012
INTERNATIONAL THEOLOGICAL COMMISSION ASSUMES ‘SEEDS OF THE WORD’ (VATICAN COUNCIL II ) IN OTHER RELIGIONS ARE KNOWN TO US AND THIS IS AN EXPLICIT EXCEPTION TO THE DOGMA EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2012/03/international-theological-commission.html#links

VATICAN'S INTERNATIONAL THEOLOGICAL COMMISSION MAKES AN ERROR IN ITS POSITION PAPER CHRISTIANITY AND THE WORLD RELIGIONS http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2012/03/vaticans-international-theological.html#links   

If Lancaster Diocese did not use this irrationality Bishop Michael Campbell would have to affirm extra ecclesiam nulla salus in accord with the Catechism (1993) and Vatican Council II

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2014/04/if-lancaster-did-not-use-this.html#links

Deacon Nick Donnellly's CCRS Course omits important point of the Catechism of the Catholic Churchhttp://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2014/04/deacon-nick-donnelllys-ccrs-course.html#links

 

 

Meeting God in

Friend & Stranger

 

Fostering respect and mutual understanding

between the religionsA teaching document of the

Catholic Bishops’ Conference of England and Wales

Trent Horn and Peter Dimond rebut each other while interpreting Vatican Council II irrationally and not rationally.

 

                                                                                                 -Lionel Andrades