DECEMBER 18, 2021
Traditionis Custode uses the false premise. Catholics are not obliged to follow it. It is immoral and unethical.This is ecclesial division
Pope Francis approves further restrictions on Latin Mass to ensure adherence to Vatican II
ROME — Pope Francis has approved further clarifications regarding restrictions on the traditional Latin Mass in an effort to ensure that liturgical reform is "irreversible" and that liturgical celebrations adhere to the changes made after the Second Vatican Council.
Lionel: There can be two interpretations of Vatican Council II one in which LG 8, LG 14, LG 16 etc can refer to visible cases in the present times of non Catholics saved outside the Church without faith and the baptism of water or 2) LG 8, LG 14, LG 16 could refer to hypothetical and speculative cases of non Catholics saved outside the Church in the present times.So there are two different premise 1) Visible cases are objective examples of salvation outside the Church and so practical exceptions for extra ecclesiam nulla salus(EENS), the Athanasius Creed and the Syllabus of Errors 2) Invisible cases are not practical exceptions for EENS etc, they are 'zero cases' in our reality. So the past ecclesiocentrism of the Church is not contradicted.
The 'reforms' of Vatican Council II come with the irrational premise. LG 8, LG 14, LG 16 etc are assumed to be objective examples of salvation and so are a break with Tradition and this opens the possible for a New Theology, a New Ecumenism etc.
Traditionis Custode uses the false premise. Catholics are not obliged to follow it. It is immoral and unethical.
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Roche, in an introduction to the new text, said that each norm has the "sole purpose of preserving the gift of ecclesial communion" with the pope.
Lionel: How can there be ecclesial communion when a False Premise is used to interpret Magisterial Documents including the Creeds ? This is not Catholic. It is not ethical too. Why should Catholics interpret Vatican Council II to create a false rupture with Tradition when this rupture is not there when the Rational Premise is used ?
This is not ecclesial communion but ecclesial division.
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In explaining his original decision to reimpose restrictions on the traditional Latin Mass earlier this year, Francis lamented that it had become a source of division in the church.
Lionel: Vatican Council II interpreted with the False Premise causes the division.
The baptism of desire, baptism of blood and invincible ignorance interpeted with the False Premise causes division with the past Magisterium.
The Nicene and Apostles Creed interpreted with the same False Premise causes division.
Why is the Latin Mass being blamed.
There can be the Novus Ordo Mass in which the priest chooses to interpret Vatican Council II and the Creeds and Catechisms with the Rational Premise. He would be supporting the exclusivist ecclesiology of the Traditional Latin Mass of the 12th to 16th century.
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Since then, the decree has become a lightning rod for a vocal minority group of Catholics who still favor the traditional Latin Mass, many of whom also have expressed skepticism or even outright rejection of the reforms of Vatican II and of the legitimacy of Francis.
Lionel: Vatican Council II interpreted with the False Premise has to be rejected by all Catholics. It is immoral. This is not an issue only for those who offer/ attend Holy Mass in Latin. Even those Catholics who go for Holy Mass in the vernacular should rreject Vatican Council II interpreted with the False Premise and accept the Council when it is interpreted with a Rational Premise.
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Among the reforms of Vatican II was the approval of the translation of the liturgy into the vernacular, in an effort to make the Mass more accessible and involve greater participation of the laity. In 2007, Pope Benedict XVI relaxed restrictions on the Latin Mass in an effort to foster greater unity with breakaway Catholic groups.
Lionel: Pope Benedict was interpreting Vatican Council II with the False Premise and expected all Catholics to accept the Council with the error.We now know that the Council can be interpreted with the Rational Premise by the Ecclesia Dei communities. Pope Benedict should correct his error and apologise, especially, to the Society of St. Pius X. He said that the issue was doctrinal and so the SSPX could not be given canonical recognition. He wanted them to choose the false intepretation of the Council and then they would be approved.
The same mistake Pope Francis is making with Traditionis Custode.
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In an interview last month, Roche said that after years of trying to offer concessions, such as through the continued use of the old Mass, those efforts have "not entirely been successful" and it is time to "go back" to the principles of the Second Vatican Council.
Lionel : He means with 'the principles of the Second Vatican Council II' created with a False Premise, Inference and Non Traditional conclusion there will be ' a new Magisterium'. This is heresy and schism and it is official.
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He reiterated that message in his introduction to the new responses, saying that he was saddened that participation in Mass, and in particular, Holy Communion, has become "a cause for division."
"It is the duty of the Bishops," he added, "to safeguard communion."
Lionel: Precisely. They must interpret Vatican Council II only with the Rational Premise. This is their moral obligation. Then the Eucharist will not be given to the divorced and remarried in the name of a liberal and irrational interpretation of Vatican Council II.
The Eucharist will not be given to non Catholics becuase there is alleged salvation outside the Church with Vatican Council II interpreted with the Irrational Premise.
Also inter-faith marriages will still be considered a mortal sin and adultary since the non Catholic spouse would be outside the Church and Vatican Council II interpreted rationally would support the past ecclesiocentrism which says outside the Churcht there is no salvation.
So it is the popes who are maintaing division on the Eucharist by interpreting the Council in an unethical way.
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In concluding his introduction to the newly published liturgy clarifications, Roche said that pastors "must not lend ourselves to sterile polemics, capable only of creating division, in which the ritual itself is often exploited by ideological viewpoints."
Lionel : Vatican Council II is ideological when a False Irrationality has to be used to interpret the Council and create a false break with the past ecclesiocentrism of the Catholic Church. This is poltical. It is approved by the Left.-Lionel Andrades
Don Pietro Leone is still not responding to the points raised on this blog. They are too hot for him : Traditionis Custode uses his interpretation of Vatican Council II with the False Premise
NOVEMBER 23, 2021
Don Pietro Leone is still not responding to the points raised on this blog. They are too hot for him.
‘The Council and the Eclipse of God’ Installment XIX: The Council’s Failure to Condemn the Moral Evil of Communism - by Don Pietro Leone
https://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2021/11/the-council-and-eclipse-of-god.html
https://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2021/11/the-council-and-eclipse-of-god.html
APRIL 7, 2021
Since Don Pietro Leone on Rorate Caeili interprets Vatican Council II like Bishop Robert Barron and the liberals, i.e with the false premise, it indicates that he also interprets the Nicene and Apostles Creed , irrationally, heretically and schismatically : he is writing another Cushingite book on Vatican Council II
Don Pietro Leone re: The Council and the Eclipse of God
A Note
At the suggestion of Don Pietro, Rorate is suspending the installments of his book on the Council for 2 weeks, so that readers may better devote themselves to the meditation and the celebration of the Passion, Death and Resurrection of Our Blessed Lord. He assures you all of his heartfelt prayers in this holy and grace-filled liturgical season. F.R.
https://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2021/03/don-pietro-leone-re-council-and-eclipse.html
Since Don Pietro Leone on Rorate Caeili interprets Vatican Council II like Bishop Robert Barron and the liberals, i.e with the false premise, it indicates that he also interprets the Nicene and Apostles Creed , irrationally, heretically and schismatically. - Lionel Andrades
MARCH 12, 2021
For a Cushingite Don Pietro Leone Lumen Gentium 8 etc would be known non Catholics saved outside the Church in 2014-2021.So he would conclude that it is the fault of Vatican Council II
From the webblog Rorate Caeii
Don Pietro Leone: The Council and the Eclipse of God – PART V
THE CHURCH
I THE CHURCH CONSIDERED IN HERSELF
After a brief introduction to expound Catholic teaching concerning the Church in Herself, we shall see how the Council opposes this teaching.
Introduction
In this introduction we shall briefly expound the Church’s:
a) Nature;
b) End, and Means for Attaining the End;
c) Constitution;
d) Properties;
e) Necessity.
https://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2021/03/don-pietro-leone-council-and-eclipse-of_11.html#more
Lionel: Don Pietro Leone is a Cushingite Lefebvrist. He interprets Vatican Council II like the liberals. He uses the false premise.
He says outside the Church there is no salvation but means that the baptism of desire and invincible ignorance are exceptions. So really outside the Church there is salvation.
In this article he has not mentioned the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus(EENS) defined by three Church Councils.
He cannot do so. He is a Cushingite and so invisble cases are objective exceptions to EENS. So Vatican Council II would contradict EENS for him.
This is typical of the followers of Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre who attend/offer the Latin Mass with the new ecclesiology,and reject the past exclusivist ecclesiology of the Catholic Church.
Without the false premise LG 8, LG 14, LG 16 etc are not practical exceptions to Ad Gentes 7 which says all need faith and baptism for salvation.
For a Cushingite like Don Piert Leone LG 8 etc would be interpreted as being known non Catholics, objectively visible people saved outside the Church. So they would contradict the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus and Don Leone would conclude that it is the fault of Vatican Council II.-Lionel Andrades
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FRIDAY, MARCH 14, 2014
SATURDAY, MARCH 13, 2021
Don Pietro Leone interprets Vatican Council II irrationally like Bishop Barron and the liberals and indicates that he also interprets the Nicene and Apostles Creed , irrationally, heretically and schismatically
Don Pietro Leone interprets Vatican Council II irrationally like Bishop Barron and the liberals and indicates that he also interprets the Nicene and Apostles Creed , irrationally, heretically and schismatically.
Much of what Don Leone has written on Vatican Council II (Don Pietro Leone: The Council and the Eclipse of God – PART V) on Rorate Caeil is abstract. The Council-text does not contradict his statements.
For him the Council contradicts Tradition and in particular exclusive salvation, since he uses a false premise. He misinterprets LG 8, LG 14, LG 16, UR 3, NA 2, GS 22 etc as being exceptions to Feeneyirte extra ecclesiam nulla salus(EENS). Since they are practical exceptions for him he implies that they are physically visible cases. Otherwise they could not be exceptions.
There are two interpretations of Vatican Council II, one rational and the other irrational and Don Leone interprets Vatican Council II like the liberals and Pope Benedict. This is the political version of the Council approved also by Una Voce International and the Latin Mass societies and the liberals in general.
Since 2014 Rorate Caeili and Don Leone have been posting reports on Vatican Council II without responding to objections.
There is no unity with them on the Creeds, since there is no unity on Vatican Council II, and since, going further back, there is no unity on the baptism of desire, invincible ignorance and extra ecclesiam nulla salus according to the Letter of the Holy Office 1949(LOHO).They follow the objective error of LOHO. It is approved by the Left and Pope Francis even though it violates the Principle of Non Contradiction. - Lionel Andrades
https://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2021/03/don-pietro-leone-council-and-eclipse-of_11.html
MARCH 13, 2021
Don Leone rejects the conclusion of his interpretation of Vatican Council II with a false premise, while Bishop Barron accepts it. Both agree that the Council is a rupture with Tradition. Both do not mention the false premise. I do not use the false premise. So for me the Council is not a rupture with Tradition
FRIDAY, MARCH 14, 2014
FRIDAY, FEBRUARY 26, 2021
Don Pietro Leone and Rorate Caeili to produce a book on Vatican Council II intrerpreted with the false premise
Don Pietro Leone is producing another book on Vatican Council II which will be a waste of time, since he does not acknowledge that it is the false premise which creates a rupture with Tradition and when the false premise is avoided Vatican Council II supports Tradition.
So Unitatis Redintigratio 3 would not contradict the past ecumenism of return since UR 3 refers only to a hypothetical and theoretical case of a Christian saved in 'imperfect communion with the Church'.
But this was not known to Bishop Bernard Fellay so UR 3 was an exception to the past ecumenism for him and he has expressed this error on line in a Letter to Friends and Benefactors.
This is like someone choosing to write a book on Fr. Leonard Feeney while not knowing that the baptism of desire and invincible ignorance never ever were practical exceptions to Feeneyite EENS. There can be no objective exceptions in the present time since if any one was saved outside the Church, without faith and baptism, he or she would only be known to God.It would be an invisible case for us human beings.
What a waste of time it would be reading Don Leone's book. He has begun in ignorance at the onset.
Don Leone does not know that there is nothing in the entire text of Unitatis Redintigratio( Decree on Ecumenism) or Lumen Gentium or Nostra Aetate to contradict the past ecclesiology of the Catholic Church.So at least for me, there is no change in the pre and post Conciliar Church's ecclesiology.-Lionel Andrades
Don Pietro Leone: The Council and the Eclipse of God Part III
THURSDAY, JANUARY 7, 2016
The roots of the new ecumenism are still unknown to Don Pietro Leone and Rorate Caeili
http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2016/01/ecumenism-essay-on-ecumenism-by-don.html
Lionel :
' the Church teaches that only the Catholic Faith (along with Baptism) unites us to this God, and that therefore the Catholic Faith is also the only religion,...'
The Society of St. Pius X, Rorate Caeili and correspondents and Pope Francis have accepted that :
Therefore, that one may obtain eternal salvation, it is not always required that he be incorporated into the Church actually as a member, but it is necessary that at least he be united to her by desire and longing.- Letter of the Holy Office 1949.
This is the basis of the new theology, the new ecumenism.
SUNDAY, FEBRUARY 28, 2021
Don Pietro Leone ( Rorate Caeili) interpret Vatican Council II superficially and then they write books on the Council
Don Pietro Leone ( Rorate Caeili) interprets Vatican Council II superficially and then they write books on the Council. - Lionel Andrades
https://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2021/02/don-pietro-leone-council-and-eclipse-of.html
SATURDAY, MARCH 13, 2021
Like Don Pietro Leone, Peter and Michael Dimond interpret Vatican Council II with a false premise even after being informed and so they would also be doing the same with the Apostles and Nicene Creed .This would be a mortal sin according to their traditional values
MARCH 12, 2021
How does don Pietro Leone interpret the Apostles Creed at Holy Mass ?
How does Rorate Caeili and Don Pietro interpret the Apostles Creed at Holy Mass ?
There are two options, one rational and the other irrational, one traditional and the other non traditional, one heretical and the other non heretical, one schismatic and the other not a rupture with the past Magisterium of the Catholic Church. Most Catholics choose the irrational version which is not prohibited by the popes, cardinals and bishops.
1. Do you say in church, at Holy Mass when the Creed is prayed, " I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Holy Catholic Church, the communion of saints" and mean that the Holy Spirit guides the Church today to teach that outside the Catholic Church there is salvation, known salvation, there are visible non Catholics saved without faith and the baptism of water and so there is no communion with the saints on extra ecclesiam nulla salus, the Athanasius Creed etc ?
Or,
2. Do you say in church at Mass , "I beleive in the Holy Spirit, the Holy Catholic Church, the communion of saints" and then mean that the Holy Spirit guides the Church today to teach that outside the Church there is no known salvation, there are no physically visible non Catholics in 2021 saved without Catholic faith and the baptism of water in the Catholic Church and so there is communion with the saints- Francis of Assisi, Ignatius of Loyola, Francis Xavier, Catherine of Siena, Maximillian Kolbe etc - on extra ecclesiam nulla salus( with no exceptions, like in the 16th century) the Athanasius Creed which says all need to be Catholic for salvation, the Catechism of Pope Pius X ( 24Q, 27Q), the Syllabus of Errors of Pope Pius IX ( ecumenism of return), Quas Primas o Pope Pius XI on the Proclamation of the Social Reign of Christ the King in all political legislation etc ?
What are your answers to these three questions?
1. Do you affirm the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus (EENS) with no exceptions ? Can I quote you ?
MARCH 12, 2021
For a Cushingite Don Pietro Leone Lumen Gentium 8 etc would be known non Catholics saved outside the Church in 2014-2021.So he would conclude that it is the fault of Vatican Council II
WE HAVE TWO INTERPRETATIONS OF
VATICAN COUNCIL II : YOURS AND MINE
Lionel Andrades
Catholic lay man in Rome. Writer on the discovery of the two interpretations of Vatican Council II, one is rational and the other is irrational, one is interpreted with the false premise and the other without it. One is Magisterial and the other, the common one, is non Magisterial.How can the Holy Spirit make an objective mistake ? So it is human error and not the Magisterium.
Vatican Council II is dogmatic and not only pastoral.
It is the same for the Creeds and Catechisms. There can be two interpretations.Catholics must choose the rational option.
Why should Catholics choose an irrational version which is heretical, nontraditional and schismatic, when a rational option is there which is traditional?
Blog: Eucharist and Mission (eucharistandmission)
E-mail: lionelandrades10@gmail.com
Twitter : @LionelAndrades1
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