Wikipedia's entry on Feeneyism is irrational and political. It is not Catholic. Neither is it ethical.It is supported by the popes and the CDF

 

MAY 19, 2023

Wikipedia's entry on Feeneyism is irrational and political. It is not Catholic. Neither is it ethical.

 Wikipedia’s entry on Feneeyism is false. Feeneyites do not reject the baptism of desire and being saved in invincible ignorance. They instead interpret them as being hypothetical cases only. This is something obvious. They reject the baptism of desire etc as being an exception for extra ecclesiam nulla salus. Thoeretical cases of the  baptism of desire are not objective exceptions, or relevant to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus (EENS). They do not exist in our reality.

 Fr. Leonard Feeney interpreted EENS with no exceptions and so did the Fourth Lateran Council (1215) and the Council of Florence (1442) which defined EENS. These two Councils were ‘Feeneyite’.

Also for Feeneyites, Vatican Council II does not contradict the Athanasius Creed, the Syllabus of Errors or the dogma EENS. Since LG 8, 14 and 16, UR 3, NA 2, GS 22 etc refer always, to only hypothetical cases.This is interpreting Vatican Council II rationally.It is not confusing, what is invisible as being physically visible and then making false inferences.This is what Wikipedia does . If someone is saved outside the Catholic Church it can only be known to God. The norm for salvation is Catholic faith and the baptism of water (AG 7, LG 14 etc).- Lionel Andrades

JUNE 13, 2017

Wikipedia is misleading on Catholic theology

Wikipedia is misleading on 'Salvation outside the church'. It interprets the subject with Cushingism instead of rational Feeneyism.

Salvation outside the church-Catholic Theology- WIKIPEDIA

Main article: Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus

The Catholic Church teaches that it is the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church founded by Jesus. Concerning non-Catholics, the Catechism of the Catholic Church has this to say:

"'Outside the Church there is no salvation'

Reformulated positively, this statement means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Lionel: This is a Cushingite line in the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC 846). So when reading it a discerning Catholic has to note that even though all salvation theoretically comes from Christ through the Church which is his Body, every one needs to be a member of the Catholic Church for salvation(Cantate Domino, Council of Florence 1441).Concretely every one needs to enter the Church to avoid Hell. 'All' need 'faith and baptism' for 'salvation' (Ad Gentes 7, Vatican Council II).So CCC 846 here does not contradict the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus(EENS) as it was known to the missionaries in the 16th century. Neither does it contradict the understanding of EENS according to Fr. Leonard Feeney and the St. Benedict Centers of his time, in Boston.This would be a Feeneyite way of reading this passage.

Here Wikipedia like Cardinal Ratzinger assumes invisible cases of the baptism of desire are visible exceptions to the Feeneyite interpretation of the dogma EENS. This is an error.It is also the irrational theology of Cushingism.

______________________________ 

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.

This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Lionel:Yes it is not aimed at those who through no fault of their own, who do not know Christ and his Church and are saved. They are not known to us in particular cases. So they are irrelevant to the dogma EENS. They are not exceptions to all needing to enter the Church for salvation in 2017.

Wikpedia, the liberals,traditionalists and Cardinal Ratzinger assumed there were known cases of people in invincible ignorance who were saved.This was also the error at the time of Vatican Council II. They made a philosophical mistake. Invisible people cannot be exceptions to the dogma EENS.

So this passage can be read in two ways.Invisible cases are invisible or they are invisible? This must be asked. Since this decides the interpretation of CCC 846.

________________________________________________

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience – those too may achieve eternal salvation.

Lionel: Is this a reference to invisible or physically visible cases in 2017? So they obviously are not relevant to the 'rigorist interpretation' of the dogma EENS.

________________________________________________ 

'Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men.'"^[149]

Lionel: Since invisible cases are not exceptions to the dogma teaching on all needing to be members of the Church, there is a need to evangelize with a different doctrine, then the present Cushingite one.In the present times all non Catholics with no known exceptions are oriented to Hell, without 'faith and baptism' in the Catholic Church.So we conduct mission knowing this.This was how the saints too were missionary.They held the traditional teaching on all needing to enter the Church with no exceptions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_theology

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SUBSISTENCE- ECCLESIOLOGY-WIKIPEDIA

SUBSISTENCE IS THE DOCTRINE THAT THE CHURCH OF CHRIST "SUBSISTS IN" THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. THE DOCTRINE IS IN CONTINUITY WITH THE PREVIOUS PHRASING OF MYSTICI CORPORIS CHRISTI THAT THE CHURCH OF CHRIST "IS" (EST) THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, ALTHOUGH SOME THEOLOGIANS HAVE INTERPRETED THE PHRASE TO BE A RUPTURE WITH THE PREVIOUS TRADITION.

Subsistit in is a term taken from Lumen Gentium paragraph 8:

This Church constituted and organized in the world as a society, subsists in the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him, although many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside of its visible structure.

Lionel: The many elements of sanctification and grace mentioned in Lumen Gentium 8 again comes from Cushingism. These are 'zero cases'. We do not know of any person who will be saved or has been saved outside the Church, without 'faith and baptism'.

_____________________________

The proper interpretation of subsistence has been controversial since the Second Vatican Council introduced the phrase; the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith has issued various interpretations confirmed by the pope, while some dissident theologians put forth more radical interpretations.

Lionel: It is only controversial if you assume there is known salvation outside the Church. There is noknown salvation outside the Church.

So again when reading Vatican Council II or the Catechism(1994) we have to keep in mind that invisible cases are not visible, they are invisible. I call this approach Feeneyism.

Wikipedia's approach is Cushingite. Invisible cases are visible. So these visible cases of the baptiism of desire and being saved in invincible ignorance are exceptions to the old ecclesiology and so now a new theology.A new ecclesiology has been created upon which depends the new ecumenism.

When I refer to Feeneyism it should not be confused with Wikipedia's explanation of Feeneyism. For me Wikpedia's Feeneyism is really Cushingism.It is a rupture with the dogma EENS as it was known for example in the 16th century.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_ecclesiology

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FEENEYISM-WIKIPEDIA

Wikipedia says:

Feeneyism is the doctrinal position associated with Leonard Feeney (1897–1978), a Jesuit priest and founder of the Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, who advocated a strict interpretation of the doctrine extra Ecclesiam nulla salus ("outside the Church there is no salvation").

Lionel: Yes there can only the strict interpretation of the dogma EENS since there are no visible cases of the baptism of desire and being saved in invincible ignorance.So there are no exceptions to the 'strict interpretation' of EENS.

Fr. Feeney was a Roman Catholic priest and a member of the Jesuits. The Jesuit order dismissed Fr. Feeney in 1949 on account of disobedience, and on 4 February 1953, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (known then as The Holy Office) declared him excommunicated "on account of grave disobedience to Church Authority, being unmoved by repeated warnings".^[1] He was reconciled to the Church in 1972.^[2] Fr. Feeney co-founded the group known as the Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feeneyism

Lionel: The Jesuits dismissed him since for them invisible cases were visible. It was the same for the cardinals at the Holy Office in 1949. Now we realize that it was the magisterium which had made an objective mistake and not Fr. Leonard Feeney.He was not saying invisible cases are visible.
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FR.LEONARD FEENEY -WIKIPEDIA

Father Leonard Edward Feeney (February 18, 1897 – January 30, 1978)^[1] was a U.S. Jesuit priest, poet, lyricist, and essayist.

He articulated and defended a strict interpretation of the Roman Catholic doctrine, extra Ecclesiam nulla salus ("outside the Church there is no salvation"). He took the position that baptism of blood and baptism of desire are unavailing and that therefore no non-Catholics will be saved.

Lionel: 'He took the position that baptism of blood and desire  are unavailing' since there are no such cases in our reality, they are unknown cases. We cannot give any one the baptism of desire like we can administer the baptism of water.No one in the past could have seen someone in Heaven saved with the baptism of desire and without the baptism of water.But for the liberals the baptism of desire was an exception to the dogma EENS.It was an example of known salvation outside the Church. This was their false premise and conclusion.

This is what lay Catholics have been taught about Catholic theology through Wikipedia and the magisterium instead of correcting Wikipedia supports the deception.--Lionel Andrades 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonard_Feeney

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JULY 5, 2016

The ordinary magisterium has replaced the traditional Feeneyite theology with irrational and non traditional Cushingite theology :Wikipedia's errors on EENS

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2016/07/the-ordinary-magisterium-has-replaced.html

UGUST 3, 2015

Wikipedia and Most Holy Trinity,Florida sedevacantist seminary make the sameerror  http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2015/08/wikipedia-and-most-holy-trinity-usa.html

Wikipedia implies that the baptism of desire and blood are explicit so are exceptions to traditional extra ecclesiam nulla salus 

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2015/08/wikipedia-implies-that-baptism-of.html

Of lying Jesuits and sedes

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2015/08/of-lying-jesuits-and-sedes.html

If Vatican Council II does not contradict EENS where is the doctrinal basis for Bishop Sanborn and Fr.Anthony Cekada's sedevacantism?

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2015/07/if-vatican-council-ii-does-not.html

NOVEMBER 20, 2012

WIKIPEDIA SAYS VATICAN COUNCIL II CONTRADICTS EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS AND THE SSPX AND THE VATICAN DO NOT PROTEST

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2012/11/wikipedia-says-vatican-council-ii.html

NOVEMBER 16, 2012 

CATHOLIC TRADITIONALISTS DO NOT CHALLENGE THE ERRORS ON WIKIPEDIA SINCE THEY ASSUME VATICAN COUNCIL II CONTRADICTS THE DOGMA EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS 

HTTP://EUCHARISTANDMISSION.BLOGSPOT.IT/2012/11/CATHOLIC-TRADITIONALISTS-DO-NOT.HTML

JULY 11, 2012

FEENEYISM IS IN ACCORD WITH MAGISTERIAL DOCUMENTS

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2012/07/feeneyism-is-in-accord-with-magisterial.html

JULY 11, 2012

WIKIPEDIA TELLS CATHOLICS WHAT IS HERESY FOR THEM AND THE VATICAN NOR THE SSPX ISSUES A CORRECTION

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2012/07/wikipedia-tells-catholics-what-is.html

JULY 10, 2012

Fr.Leonard Feeney, Wikipedia and Vatican Council II

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2012/07/frleonard-feeney-wikipedia-and-vatican.html

SEPTEMBER 24, 2011

APPEAL TO CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH, VATICAN: IT’S TIME TO CLARIFY THE BOSTON HERESY OF RICHARD CUSHING

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2011/09/appeal-to-congregation-for-doctrine-of.html

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AUGUST 11, 2011

SECULAR CATECHESIS FOR CATHOLICS : NO ONE OBJECTS IN THE MEDIAhttp://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2011/08/secular-catechesis-for-catholics-no-one.html

JANUARY 31, 2011

THREE COMMON SENSE POINTS TO USE AGAINST PROPAGANDA AGAINST THE CHURCH - WIKIPEDIA AND FR.WILLIAM MOSThttp://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2011/01/three-common-sense-points-to-use.html

 

APRIL 23, 2010

THERE IS NO CONTRADICTION BETWEEN LUMEN GENTIUM VATICAN COUNCIL II AND FEENEYISM AS WIKIPEDIA ALLEGES

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2010/04/there-is-no-contradiction-between-lumen.html

OCTOBER 1, 2009

WIKIPEDIA EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS ENTRY FULL OF CONFUSION

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2009/10/wikipedia-extra-ecclesiam-nulla-salus.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extra_Ecclesiam_nulla_salus

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JULY 5, 2016

The ordinary magisterium has replaced the traditional Feeneyite theology with irrational and non traditional Cushingite theology : Wikipedia's errors on EENS

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2016/07/the-ordinary-magisterium-has-replaced.html

AUGUST 3, 2015

Wikipedia and Most Holy Trinity,Florida sedevacantist seminary make the same error  http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2015/08/wikipedia-and-most-holy-trinity-usa.html

Wikipedia implies that the baptism of desire and blood are explicit so are exceptions to traditional extra ecclesiam nulla salus 

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2015/08/wikipedia-implies-that-baptism-of.html

Of lying Jesuits and sedes

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2015/08/of-lying-jesuits-and-sedes.html

If Vatican Council II does not contradict EENS where is the doctrinal basis for Bishop Sanborn and Fr.Anthony Cekada's sedevacantism?

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2015/07/if-vatican-council-ii-does-not.html

NOVEMBER 20, 2012

WIKIPEDIA SAYS VATICAN COUNCIL II CONTRADICTS EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS AND THE SSPX AND THE VATICAN DO NOT PROTESThttp://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2012/11/wikipedia-says-vatican-council-ii.html

NOVEMBER 16, 2012 

CATHOLIC TRADITIONALISTS DO NOT CHALLENGE THE ERRORS ON WIKIPEDIA SINCE THEY ASSUME VATICAN COUNCIL II CONTRADICTS THE DOGMA EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS HTTP://EUCHARISTANDMISSION.BLOGSPOT.IT/2012/11/CATHOLIC-TRADITIONALISTS-DO-NOT.HTML

JULY 11, 2012

FEENEYISM IS IN ACCORD WITH MAGISTERIAL DOCUMENTS

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2012/07/feeneyism-is-in-accord-with-magisterial.html

JULY 11, 2012

WIKIPEDIA TELLS CATHOLICS WHAT IS HERESY FOR THEM AND THE VATICAN NOR THE SSPX ISSUES A CORRECTION

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2012/07/wikipedia-tells-catholics-what-is.html

JULY 10, 2012

Fr.Leonard Feeney, Wikipedia and Vatican Council II

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2012/07/frleonard-feeney-wikipedia-and-vatican.html

SEPTEMBER 24, 2011

APPEAL TO CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH, VATICAN: IT’S TIME TO CLARIFY THE BOSTON HERESY OF RICHARD CUSHING

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2011/09/appeal-to-congregation-for-doctrine-of.html

_________________________________________________-

AUGUST 11, 2011

SECULAR CATECHESIS FOR CATHOLICS : NO ONE OBJECTS IN THE MEDIAhttp://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2011/08/secular-catechesis-for-catholics-no-one.html

JANUARY 31, 2011

THREE COMMON SENSE POINTS TO USE AGAINST PROPAGANDA AGAINST THE CHURCH - WIKIPEDIA AND FR.WILLIAM MOSThttp://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2011/01/three-common-sense-points-to-use.html

 

APRIL 23, 2010

THERE IS NO CONTRADICTION BETWEEN LUMEN GENTIUM VATICAN COUNCIL II AND FEENEYISM AS WIKIPEDIA ALLEGES

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2010/04/there-is-no-contradiction-between-lumen.html

OCTOBER 1, 2009

WIKIPEDIA EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS ENTRY FULL OF CONFUSION

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2009/10/wikipedia-extra-ecclesiam-nulla-salus.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extra_Ecclesiam_nulla_salus

__________________________________________________

There are two versions of Feeneyism : mine and Wikipedia's. The CDF is Cushingite and not Feeneyite. Wikipedia also uses Cushingism.

 

MAY 19, 2023

There are two versions of Feeneyism : mine and Wikipedia's

 For Wikipedia what is invisible is visible. I call this Cushingism. For me what is invisible is invisible. I call this Feeneyism.

We can interpret Vatican Council II with Feeneyism or Cushingism.

We can interpret the Creeds and Catechisms with Feeneyism or Cushingism.

Cushingism is irrational. It produces a rupture with extra ecclesiam nulla salus (EENS) according to the Fourth Lateran Council (1215).This Council defined EENS and did not mention any exceptions.

So today there are two interpretations of EENS and Vatican Council II.

There are two interpretations also of the baptism of desire. Wikipedia’s and mine. Rational or irrational.With Feeneyism or Cushingism.- Lionel Andrades

 

MAY 19, 2023

Cardinal Sean O Malley and the bishops in Boston and New England must be asked to interpret Vatican Council II only rationally and so affirm Feeneyite extra ecclesiam nulla salus (EENS) and have it taught in the schools, adult catechesis etc. The bishop of Manchester and Worcester can no more interpret Vatican Council II deceptively in public. They must affirm the strict interpretation of EENS of the St. Benedict Center in their diocese

https://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2023/05/cardinal-sean-o-malley-and-bishops-in.html

APRIL 8, 2023

Two versions of Feeneyism : Wikipedia needs to be updated 

Leonard Edward Feeney (February 18, 1897 – January 30, 1978) was an American Jesuit priest, poet, lyricist, and essayist.

He articulated a strict interpretation of the Roman Catholic doctrine extra Ecclesiam nulla salus ("outside the Church there is no salvation"). He took the position that baptism of blood and baptism of desire are unavailing and that therefore no non-Catholics will be saved - Wikipedia 

Lionel :

unavailing : Fr. Leonard Feeney means there are  no known and visible cases of the baptism of desire to contradict the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.

_______________________  

Wikipedia

Feeneyism is a Christian doctrine, associated with Leonard Feeney, which advocates an interpretation of the dogma extra Ecclesiam nulla salus ("outside the Church there is no salvation") which is that only Catholics can go to heaven and that only those baptised with water can go to heaven. Feeneyism opposes the doctrines of baptism of desire and baptism of blood as well as the view that non-Catholics can go to heaven.

Feeneyism is considered a heresy by the Catholic Church; some Catholics refer to Feeneyism as the Boston heresy. - Wikipedia 

Lionel : 

Feeneyism is a Catholic doctrine, associated with Leonard Feeney and the Fourth Lateran Council (12159 and the Council of Florence (1442) which defined extra ecclesiam nulla salus as a dogma of the Catholic Church.  These Councils advocate an interpretation of the dogma extra Ecclesiam nulla salus ("outside the Church there is no salvation") which is that only Catholics can go to heaven and that only those baptised with water can go to heaven. If a non Catholic goes to Heaven he will be a Catholic there and not a non Catholic.

Feeneyism does not oppose the doctrines of baptism of desire and baptism of blood but considres them specualtive and hypothetical and known only to God, if they exist . So they do not contradict the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus , which says that in Heaven there are only Catholics.

Feeneyism is considered a heresy by the the Jewish  Left and their supporters in the Catholic Church who refer to to Feeneyism as the Boston heresy. Other Catholics refer to the Boston Heresy as the heresy of Pope Pius XII, Cardinal Richard Cushing and the Jesuits. They assumed unknown and invisible cases of the baptism of desire etc were visible and known exceptions for EENS according the the Church Councils in the Middle Ages.- L.ionel  Andrades

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CONDEMNATION OF FEENEYISM[EDIT]

In a 1949 letter to Cardinal Cushing, Archbishop of Boston, the Holy Office condemned Feeney's teaching that only those formally baptized in the Catholic Church can be saved. The Holy Office affirmed that those baptized by their desire can be saved. This letter was sent by Cardinal Francesco Marchetti Selvaggiani to Cardinal Cushing. This letter stated among other things:^[9][10]

The same in its own degree must be asserted of the Church, in as far as She is the general help to salvation. Therefore, that one may obtain eternal salvation, it is not always required that he be incorporated into the Church actually as a member, but it is necessary that at least he be united to Her by desire and longing. However, this desire need not always be explicit, as it is in catechumens; but when a person is involved in invincible ignorance God accepts also an implicit desire, so called because it is included in that good disposition of soul whereby a person wishes his will to be conformed to the will of God. These things are clearly taught in that dogmatic letter which was issued by the Sovereign Pontiff, Pope Pius XII, on June 29, 1943, On the Mystical Body of Jesus Christ (AAS, Vol. 35, an. 1943, p. 193 ff.). For in this letter the Sovereign Pontiff clearly distinguishes between those who are actually incorporated into the Church as members, and those who are united to the Church only by desire.— Letter of the Holy Office 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feeneyism

Lionel :

 Therefore, that one may obtain eternal salvation, it is not always required that he be incorporated into the Church actually as a member

The dogma EENS of the Church Councils says that one needs to be a member of the Catholic Church for salvation and the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith is here saying in this Letter that one does not have to be a member. This is heresy. It is also schism with the Magisterium over the centuries.

The Letter also confuses invisible cases of the BOD, BOB and I.I as visible exceptions for the strict interpretation of EENS, of the Church Councils and Fr. Leonard Feeney. This is irrational. It is also unethical and dishonest. This is a scandal.

Vatican Council II (Wikipedia)

• Second Vatican Council, Dogmatic Constitution Lumen gentium, 14: "They could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it, or to remain in it."
• Second Vatican Council, Dogmatic Constitution Lumen gentium, 16: "Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things, and as Saviour wills that all men be saved. Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience. Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life."

The Catechism of the Catholic Church states that the phrase, "Outside the Church there is no salvation", means, if put in positive terms, that "all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body", and it "is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church".^[44]

At the same time, it adds: "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."

The Church has also declared that "she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter", and that "those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways." - Wikipedia 

Lionel :  

Second Vatican Council, Dogmatic Constitution Lumen Gentium, 14: "They could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it, or to remain in it."

Those who are in invincible ignorance and who are saved are known only to God. So these are not practical exceptions for the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus (EENS). We must not confuse what is invisible as being visible.

Second Vatican Council, Dogmatic Constitution Lumen Gentium, 16: "Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things, and as Saviour wills that all men be saved. Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience. Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life."

 Lionel:

Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.

 Yes hypothetically and it will include Catholic faith and baptism of water since this the teaching of the Councils, Catechisms and Creeds.

Hypothetical cases must not be projected as being objective exceptions for the dogma EENS in 1949-2023.

 

The Catechism of the Catholic Church states that the phrase, "Outside the Church there is no salvation", means, if put in positive terms, that "all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body", and it "is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church".

Lionel : Yes all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body and all need to enter the Church with faith and baptism to avoid Hell ( for salvation). There are no physically visible exceptions (Council of Florence etc). Those who through no fault of their own  who do not know Christ and His Church also need to enter the Church as members to be saved from Hell. If anyone is saved in invincible ignorance, he or she would only be known to God. In Heaven he or she would be a Catholic. God would provide a preacher to teach them the faith and baptise them, as St. Thomas Aquinas said. The norm for salvation is faith and baptism (AG 7) and not invincible ignorance(LG 14 etc).There are not 'explicit' and 'literal' cases of being saved in invincible ignorance or the baptism of desire.

_____________

Extra ecclesiam nulla salus (Wikipedia)

Strict interpretation[edit]

See also: Feeneyism

Some sedevacantists called Feeneyists (such as the Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary of New Hampshire) believe that only baptized Catholics can be saved. They reject of concept of baptism by desire and baptism of blood, and say that only a properly performed rite with the use of water and the requisite words is sufficient

 

Lionel : The Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary in New Hampshire, USA are not sedevacantists. They accept Pope Francis as the pope.They believe that only baptised Catholics who live the Catholic Faith and die without mortal sins on their soul can be saved since this is the teaching of the Catholic Church. This is the teaching of the Church in Magisterial Documents interpreted rationally.

This is the teaching of the Fourth Lateran Council (1215) and the Council of Florence (1442) which did not mention any exceptions. The two Councils are not contradicted by hypothetical and unknown cases of the baptism of desire (BOD), baptism of blood(BOB) and being saved in invincible ignorance(I.I).

The two Councils and the BOD, BOB and I.I are interpreted rationally by the Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary. They do not confuse what is invisible as being visible and then project false exceptions for the dogma EENS. So they do not reject BOD, BOB and I.I which can only be hypothetical.They do not  project them as exceptions for Feeneyite EENS.- Lionel Andrades

SALVATION AND THE CHURCH

by Bradley Eli M.Div., Ma.Th.  •  ChurchMilitant.com  •  August 31, 2020

LUKE 13:23: 'LORD, ARE THEY FEW THAT ARE SAVED?'

The Catholic Church infallibly teaches the truth that "Outside the Church, there is no salvation." The Church isn't saying here that only Catholics go to Heaven but that all graces needed for salvation originate in Christ and pass through His Mystical Body, the Church. 

Lionel: The Catholic Church is saying here that there are only Catholics in Heaven. If there are non Catholics who are going to Heaven, in Heaven they will only be Catholic. The Church is saying this when Magisterial Documents( Councils, Creeds and Catechisms) are interpreted rationally and not irrationally. Bradley Eli interprets Vatican Council II irrationally.

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Section 846 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church affirms that this dogma does mean "All salvation comes from Christ the head through the Church, which is His body."

Lionel: Yes all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church, which is His Body and all need to enter the Catholic Church with faith and the baptism of water for salvaton ( Ad Gentes 7, Lumen Gentium 14, Catechism of the Catholic Church 845, 846, Fourth Lateran Council (1215) etc). When Vatican Council II and the Catechism of the Catholic Church are interpreted rationally there is no contradiction. There is no rupture with the Fourth Council of Florence (1215) on the strict interpretation of EENS, with no known exceptions.

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Those unable to know this truth have what's called invincible ignorance. A little Jewish girl who dies at the age of 6 might be such a person.

Lionel : Yes there could be someone in invincible ignorance and if the person is to be saved this case would only be known to God. For us humans they are theoretical and speculative. We cannot point out any person and say that this or that person will go to Heaven even if he is in invincible ignorance. We cannot meet or see someone saved in invincible ignorance. They are invisible in our reality. So they are not practical exceptions for the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus ( Council of Florence 1442).

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Of these, Pope Pius IX in his 1863 encyclical, Quanto Conficiamur Moerore, wrote:

It is known to Us and to you that they who labor in invincible ignorance of our most holy religion and who, zealously keeping the natural law and its precepts engraved in the hearts of all by God, and being ready to obey God, live an honest and upright life, can, by the operating power of divine light and grace, attain eternal life, since God ... will by no means suffer anyone to be punished with eternal torment who has not the guilt of deliberate sin.

Lionel: Yes and we cannot project this case of invincible ignorance as an exception for the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus(EENS). It was known to Pope Pius IX that these are theoretical cases and not objective exceptions for the dogma EENS.That these are hypothetical cases is common sense. It was known through the centuries.

 It was only in 1949 in the Letter of the Holy Office (CDF) that a mistake was made. It was assumed that invincible ignorance was a visible case. Bradley Eli makes this mistake. This is the common  formation- error in the Catholic seminaries and universities all over the world.

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As cited in Denzinger §1677, Pius IX adds:

But, the Catholic dogma that no one can be saved outside the Catholic Church is well known; and also that those who are obstinate toward the authority and definitions of the same Church, and who persistently separate themselves from the unity of the Church, and from the Roman Pontiff, the successor of Peter, to whom "the guardianship of the vine has been entrusted by the Savior," cannot obtain eternal salvation.

Lionel : The 1949 Letter of the Holy Office was placed in the Denzinger by the liberals. It was put there along with its objective mistake. Catholics are not obligated to follow the second part of the 1949 LOHO which contradicts the first part which affirmed traditional EENS. It does this with a fake premise.

The 1949 LOHO is not Magisterial, even though it was accepted by Rahner, Ratzinger, Kung and Congar, since the Holy Spirit cannot make an objective mistake. With this objective mistake, confusing what is invisible as being visible, unknown as being known, alleged practical exceptions were created for the Magisterial interpretation of EENS over the centuries.

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Vatican II repeats this admonition in Lumen Gentium §14: "Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved. ... Not only shall they not be saved but they will be the more severely judged."

Lionel :  Yes whoever knows and does not enter is oriented to Hell. But it does not mean that we know of any one in particular who will go to Heaven outside the Church, with invincible ignorance. All people in general need Catholic faith and the baptism of water for salvation (AG 7). All. Those who know and those who do not know, need to accept Jesus in only the Catholic Church for salvation ( to avoid Hell ). Lumen Gentium 14 refers to those ‘who know’ since the Council Fathers, the liberals, interpreted 'being saved in invincible ignorance', irrationally, like the 1949 LOHO. They assumed that the baptism of desire (BOD) and being saved in invincible ignorance (I.I) referred to 'known and visible non Catholics' in 1949-1965 who were saved outside the Catholic Church, without faith and the baptism of water. But the Councils from the 12^th to the 16^th century are clear. All need to be members of the Church for salvation. All. The word all is also used in Ad Gentes 7. It says all need faith and the baptism of water, for salvation (AG 7, Vatican Council II) The BOD and I.I are not exceptions or relevant for AG 7 or the dogma EENS.

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Religious pluralism (Wikipedia)

The Catholic Church, unlike some Protestant denominations, affirms "developmental theology," understood to mean that the "Holy Spirit, in and through the evolving and often confused circumstances of concrete history, is gradually bringing the Church to an ever more mature understanding of the deposit of faith (the saving truths entrusted by Jesus Christ to the Apostles—these as such cannot be changed or added to). The Church comes to recognize baptism of desire quite early in its history. Later, the Church realizes that Romans 2:14–16, for example, allows for the salvation of non-Christians who do not have unobstructed exposure to Christian teachings: "When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires… They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts…^[25] Various forms of "implicit faith" come to hold standing, until at Vatican Council II, the Church declares: "Nor shall divine providence deny the assistance necessary for salvation to those who, without any fault of theirs, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God, and who, not without grace, strive to lead a good life" (#16). Vatican Council II in its Declaration Nostra aetate addresses the non-Christian religions with respect and appreciation, affirming the goodness found in them. Since Vatican Council II, Catholic dialogists in particular are working out the implications of John Paul II's statement, in Redemptor hominis #6 that Christians should recognize "the Holy Spirit operating outside the visible confines of the Mystical Body of Christ." - Religious pluralism, Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_pluralism

Lionel:

The Catholic Church, unlike some Protestant denominations, affirms "developmental theology," understood to mean that the "Holy Spirit, in and through the evolving and often confused circumstances of concrete history, is gradually bringing the Church to an ever more mature understanding of the deposit of faith (the saving truths entrusted by Jesus Christ to the Apostles—these as such cannot be changed or added to). The Church comes to recognize baptism of desire quite early in its history. Later, the Church realizes that Romans 2:14–16, for example, allows for the salvation of non-Christians who do not have unobstructed exposure to Christian teachings: "When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires… They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts…^[25] Various forms of "implicit faith" come to hold standing, until at Vatican Council II, the Church declares: "Nor shall divine providence deny the assistance necessary for salvation to those who, without any fault of theirs, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God, and who, not without grace, strive to lead a good life" (#16). Vatican Council II in its Declaration Nostra aetate addresses the non-Christian religions with respect and appreciation, affirming the goodness found in them. Since Vatican Council II, Catholic dialogists in particular are working out the implications of John Paul II's statement, in Redemptor hominis #6 that Christians should recognize "the Holy Spirit operating outside the visible confines of the Mystical Body of Christ." - Religious pluralism, Wikipedia

"developmental theology," understood to mean that the "Holy Spirit, in and through the evolving and often confused circumstances of concrete history, is gradually bringing the Church to an ever more mature understanding of the deposit of faith (the saving truths entrusted by Jesus Christ to the Apostles—these as such cannot be changed or added to). 

There cannot be ‘development theology’ by confusing what is invisible as being visible and then projecting alleged practical exceptions for the past ecclesiocentric ecclesiology of the Catholic Church.

The Church comes to recognize baptism of desire quite early in its history. Later, the Church realizes that Romans 2:14–16, for example, allows for the salvation of non-Christians who do not have unobstructed exposure to Christian teachings.

Even the references to the baptism of desire in early history were to hypothetical and speculative cases only. They are not objective cases. This is a given.

). Vatican Council II in its Declaration Nostra aetate addresses the non-Christian religions with respect and appreciation, affirming the goodness found in them. Since Vatican Council II, Catholic dialogists in particular are working out the implications of John Paul II's statement, in Redemptor hominis #6 that Christians should recognize "the Holy Spirit operating outside the visible confines of the Mystical Body of Christ." 

 Yes the Holy Spirit can act outside the visible confines of the Church (LG 8) and there are good things in other religions. However the religions are not paths to salvation (CDF, Notification on Fr. Jacques Dupuis sj, 2001).Other religions also have errors and superstition, Pope John Paul II tells us in Dominus Iesus.

We also cannot say that a particular will be saved or has been saved outside the visible boundaries of the Catholic Church where the true Church of Christ ‘subsists’ (LG 8).We cannot say that anyone in particular will be saved outside the Church with ‘elements of sanctification and truth in other religions’ (LG 8), good and holy things in other religions (NA 2), imperfect communion with the Church (UR 3) or just being men of goodwill (GS 22).- Lionel Andrades

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