from Sandro Magister's blog, Il Settimo Cieli
It is a speech that is absolutely to be reread in its entirety:
But here in summation is how pope Joseph Ratzinger developed his exegesis of Vatican Council II.
He began by recalling that also after the Council of Nicaea in 325 the Church was rocked by the most heated conflicts, which made St. Basil write:
“The raucous shouting of those who through disagreement rise up against one another, the incomprehensible chatter, the confused din of uninterrupted clamouring, has now filled almost the whole of the Church, falsifying through excess or failure the right doctrine of the faith...”
But why has the aftermath of Vatican II been so contentious as well? Benedict XVI's answer is that everything has depended “on its hermeneutic,” meaning on the “key to interpreting and applying it.”
Lionel: Precisely.
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The conflict has arisen from the fact that “two contrary hermeneutics came face to face and quarrelled with each other. ”
Lionel: Correct. One was with the false premise and the other was without it. So the conclusion of both had to be different.
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On the one hand there was a “hermeneutic of discontinuity and rupture.” On the other, a “hermeneutic of reform, of renewal in the continuity of the one subject-Church.”
Lionel: False.False and false again.
This is the conclusion of the use of a false premise to interpret Vatican Council II.
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According to the first hermeneutic "it would be necessary not to follow the texts of the Council but its spirit,” making room for “impulses toward the new” that are seen as underlying the texts, “in which, to reach unanimity, it was found necessary to keep and reconfirm many old things that are now pointless.”
Lionel: Without the false premise there is no 'spirit of Vatican Council II', no 'development of doctrine' etc. Pope Benedict is a Cushingite. His interpretation of Vatican Council II was with the false premise.
The secret is now out. It is only a question of time before the theological house of cards collapses.
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But with this - the pope objected - “the nature of a Council as such is therefore basically misunderstood. In this way, it is considered as a sort of constituent that eliminates an old constitution and creates a new one.” When instead “the essential constitution of the Church comes from the Lord” and the bishops need simply be its faithful and wise “administrators.”
Lionel: Yes when a false premise is used the 'old constitution' is eliminated and a new one is created.Without the false premise, the Council supports Tradition and the 'essential constution of the Church' which 'comes from the Lord'.
With the false premise the popes and bishops are not simply faithful and wise adminstrators. Some of them are conniving manipulators others are in ignorance.Some would want to hide the truth. They would not want people to want to know what is the exact cause of the rupture with Tradition.
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Up to this point, Benedict XVI therefore seemed to attribute the hermeneutic of discontinuity to the Church's progressive current alone. But further on in the address, in analyzing in depth the Council’s intention to “give a new definition to the relationship between the Church and the modern State,” he took up the question on which not the progressives but the traditionalists have stumbled more, to the point of breaking with the Church as the followers of Marcel Lefebvre have done and as Viganò now seems on the point of doing.
It is the question of religious freedom, addressed by the conciliar declaration “Dignitatis Humanae.” A declaration that Viganò too charges with the worst of offenses, to the point of writing that “if it has been possible for Pachamama to be worshiped in a church, we owe this to ‘Dignitatis Humanae’.”
Lionel: We owe it to a new interpretation of Dignitatis Humanae(DH) based upon the 'spirit of Vatican Council II,' encouraged by the false premise.
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In fact, it is undeniable that on religious freedom Vatican II marked a clear discontinuity, if not a rupture, with the ordinary teaching of the Church of the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, which was strongly anti-liberal. Benedict XVI explicitly recognized this in his address and also explained the historical reasons for it, which precisely because they are historical have changed over time and allowed the Council, “recognizing and making its own an essential principle of the modern State with the Decree on Religious Freedom,” to recover “the deepest patrimony of the Church,” that “of Jesus himself” and “of the martyrs of the early Church,” who “died for freedom of conscience and the freedom to profess one's own faith - a profession that no State can impose but which, instead, can only be claimed with God's grace in freedom of conscience.”
Lionel: DH refers to a secular state. In a Catholic State this freedom would still exist.
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“It is precisely in this combination of continuity and discontinuity at different levels that the very nature of true reform,” pope Ratzinger said in that address. “The Second Vatican Council, with its new definition of the relationship between the faith of the Church and certain essential elements of modern thought, has reviewed or even corrected certain historical decisions, but in this apparent discontinuity it has actually preserved and deepened her inmost nature and true identity.”
Pope Benedict would not dare interpret Vatican Council II without the false premise. He understands what the conclusions would be . In March 2016 ( Avvenire) he quickly 'broke his silence' to say that EENS was no more like it was for the missionaries in the 16th century.Since there was a development with Vatican Council II ( interpreted with the false premise) for him. There was a threat to his theology.Damage control. Enforce the narrative.
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There is therefore a “hermeneutic of discontinuity” to which Benedict XVI as well gave his approval, because “it is precisely in this combination of continuity and discontinuity at different levels that the very nature of true reform consists.”
Lionel: We know that there is a hermeneutic of discontinuity with Tradition,even a school boy would agree here. Notice, the pope is still trying to defend the Council interpreted with the false premise,inference and conclusion. He is not disclosing the secret for the discontinuity, the precise cause.
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But at this point we might as well let him talk and reproduce below the final part of that address of his on the Council, in which he presented at length what has been summarized above in a few lines.
Viganò's counter arguments are also available on the websites that cover him. Let the reader compare.
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“In this process of innovation in continuity…”
by Benedict XVI
[…] In the great dispute about man which marks the modern epoch, the Council had to focus in particular on the theme of anthropology. It had to question the relationship between the Church and her faith on the one hand, and man and the contemporary world on the other. The question becomes even clearer if, instead of the generic term "contemporary world", we opt for another that is more precise: the Council had to determine in a new way the relationship between the Church and the modern era.
Lionel: Yes, the new way was to create a New Theology based upon visible and unknown non Catholics saved outside the Church who would make the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus (EENS) obsolete and allege that there is salvation outside the Catholic Church.
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This relationship had a somewhat stormy beginning with the Galileo case. It was then totally interrupted when Kant described "religion within pure reason" and when, in the radical phase of the French Revolution, an image of the State and the human being that practically no longer wanted to allow the Church any room was disseminated.
In the 19th century under Pius IX, the clash between the Church's faith and a radical liberalism and the natural sciences, which also claimed to embrace with their knowledge the whole of reality to its limit, stubbornly proposing to make the "hypothesis of God" superfluous, had elicited from the Church a bitter and radical condemnation of this spirit of the modern age. Thus, it seemed that there was no longer any milieu open to a positive and fruitful understanding, and the rejection by those who felt they were the representatives of the modern era was also drastic.
In the meantime, however, the modern age had also experienced developments. People came to realize that the American Revolution was offering a model of a modern State that differed from the theoretical model with radical tendencies that had emerged during the second phase of the French Revolution.
The natural sciences were beginning to reflect more and more clearly their own limitations imposed by their own method, which, despite achieving great things, was nevertheless unable to grasp the global nature of reality.
So it was that both parties were gradually beginning to open up to each other. In the period between the two World Wars and especially after the Second World War, Catholic statesmen demonstrated that a modern secular State could exist that was not neutral regarding values but alive, drawing from the great ethical sources opened by Christianity.
Catholic social doctrine, as it gradually developed, became an important model between radical liberalism and the Marxist theory of the State. The natural sciences, which without reservation professed a method of their own to which God was barred access, realized ever more clearly that this method did not include the whole of reality. Hence, they once again opened their doors to God, knowing that reality is greater than the naturalistic method and all that it can encompass.
It might be said that three circles of questions had formed which then, at the time of the Second Vatican Council, were expecting an answer.
First of all, the relationship between faith and modern science had to be redefined. Furthermore, this did not only concern the natural sciences but also historical science for, in a certain school, the historical-critical method claimed to have the last word on the interpretation of the Bible and, demanding total exclusivity for its interpretation of Sacred Scripture, was opposed to important points in the interpretation elaborated by the faith of the Church.
Secondly, it was necessary to give a new definition to the relationship between the Church and the modern State that would make room impartially for citizens of various religions and ideologies, merely assuming responsibility for an orderly and tolerant coexistence among them and for the freedom to practise their own religion.
Lionel: This could only be possible with the New Theology based upon the false premise. Since there were alleged exceptions to EENS and unknown cases of the baptism of desire, baptism of blood and invincible ignorance were known exceptions to the Athanasius Creed which states all need to be Catholics for salvation, it was possible for Cardinal Ratzinger to believe there was the 'Anonymous Christian', a new ecumenism with known cases of non Catholic Christians saved in their religions.
Without the false premise the pope would be back to the Old Theology and exclusivist ecclesiology of the Church.
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Thirdly, linked more generally to this was the problem of religious tolerance - a question that required a new definition of the relationship between the Christian faith and the world religions. In particular, before the recent crimes of the Nazi regime and, in general, with a retrospective look at a long and difficult history, it was necessary to evaluate and define in a new way the relationship between the Church and the faith of Israel.
Lionel: Pope Benedict often says Jews do not need to convert into the Catholic Church for salvation.Why? Since there is known salvation outside the Church.Known salvation? Yes unknown cases of LG8, LG 14, LG 16 etc are known non Catholics, saved without faith and baptism in the Catholic Church.
This is the obligatory false premise, inference and conclusion every religious community must affirm in their interpretation of Vatican Council II today, for good relations with the Chief Rabbinate of Israel.
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These are all subjects of great importance - they were the great themes of the second part of the Council - on which it is impossible to reflect more broadly in this context. It is clear that in all these sectors, which all together form a single problem, some kind of discontinuity might emerge. Indeed, a discontinuity had been revealed but in which, after the various distinctions between concrete historical situations and their requirements had been made, the continuity of principles proved not to have been abandoned. It is easy to miss this fact at a first glance.
Lionel: For Pope Benedict in principle unknown cases of BOD, BOB and I.I are known exceptions to EENS:
For him in principle invisible cases of LG 8, LG 14, LG 16 etc are visible exceptions to the dogma EENS and the Athanasius Creed.
So in principle there is a discontinuity with EENS, Athanasius Creed, Syllabus of Errors of Pius IX and the Catechism of Pope Pius X, only to name a few Church documents.
This is a type of official apostasy.
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It is precisely in this combination of continuity and discontinuity at different levels that the very nature of true reform consists. In this process of innovation in continuity we must learn to understand more practically than before that the Church's decisions on contingent matters - for example, certain practical forms of liberalism or a free interpretation of the Bible - should necessarily be contingent themselves, precisely because they refer to a specific reality that is changeable in itself. It was necessary to learn to recognize that in these decisions it is only the principles that express the permanent aspect, since they remain as an undercurrent, motivating decisions from within.
On the other hand, not so permanent are the practical forms that depend on the historical situation and are therefore subject to change.
Lionel: I do not pretend to understand all this ( above).
But I know that if I interpret hypotheical cases as just hypothetical the Council will in principle have a continuity with Tradition( EENS, Syllabus of Errors etc ).
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Basic decisions, therefore, continue to be well-grounded, whereas the way they are applied to new contexts can change. Thus, for example, if religious freedom were to be considered an expression of the human inability to discover the truth and thus become a canonization of relativism, then this social and historical necessity is raised inappropriately to the metaphysical level and thus stripped of its true meaning. Consequently, it cannot be accepted by those who believe that the human person is capable of knowing the truth about God and, on the basis of the inner dignity of the truth, is bound to this knowledge.
Lionel: Pope Benedict is the pope so with good will let me assume that many people understand what is written here even though I do not.
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It is quite different, on the other hand, to perceive religious freedom as a need that derives from human coexistence, or indeed, as an intrinsic consequence of the truth that cannot be externally imposed but that the person must adopt only through the process of conviction.
The Second Vatican Council, recognizing and making its own an essential principle of the modern State with the Decree on Religious Freedom, has recovered the deepest patrimony of the Church. By so doing she can be conscious of being in full harmony with the teaching of Jesus himself (cf. Mt 22: 21), as well as with the Church of the martyrs of all time. The ancient Church naturally prayed for the emperors and political leaders out of duty (cf. I Tm 2: 2); but while she prayed for the emperors, she refused to worship them and thereby clearly rejected the religion of the State.
Lionel: Yes I agree with him if he is saying that DH does not contradict the traditional teaching on the Social Reign of Christ the King in all political legislation and government.
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The martyrs of the early Church died for their faith in that God who was revealed in Jesus Christ, and for this very reason they also died for freedom of conscience and the freedom to profess one's own faith - a profession that no State can impose but which, instead, can only be claimed with God's grace in freedom of conscience. A missionary Church known for proclaiming her message to all peoples must necessarily work for the freedom of the faith. She desires to transmit the gift of the truth that exists for one and all.
Lionel. Yes and they also died for proclaiming outside the Church there is no salvation, which Vatican Council II does not contradict when it is interpreted rationally i.e without the false premise.
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At the same time, she assures peoples and their Governments that she does not wish to destroy their identity and culture by doing so, but to give them, on the contrary, a response which, in their innermost depths, they are waiting for - a response with which the multiplicity of cultures is not lost but instead unity between men and women increases and thus also peace between peoples.
Lionel: DH for me is in harmony with the traditional teaching on the Social Reign of Christ the King based upon traditional EENS. Since there is no known salvation outside the Church it is important for the salvation of souls that the Government is Catholic.There is a Catholic State.
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The Second Vatican Council, with its new definition of the relationship between the faith of the Church and certain essential elements of modern thought, has reviewed or even corrected certain historical decisions, but in this apparent discontinuity it has actually preserved and deepened her inmost nature and true identity.
Lionel: With the false premise it has created a rupture with Tradition.
Without the false premise there is a continuity with Tradition. Pope Benedict must be asked to interpret Vatican Council II without the false premise and create a continuity with the past Magisterium of the Church.
With the false premise, the teachings of the popes on this subject cannot be magisterial.
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The Church, both before and after the Council, was and is the same Church, one, holy, catholic and apostolic, journeying on through time; she continues "her pilgrimage amid the persecutions of the world and the consolations of God", proclaiming the death of the Lord until he comes (cf. Lumen Gentium, n. 8).
Lionel: False this is not the same Church. Since after Vatican Council II Pope Paul VI interpreted the Council with the false premise and so did Cardinal Ratzinger. The pope today have a choice. They can avoid the premise and then it will theologically and doctrinally be the same Church, one holy, Catholic and apostolic.
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Those who expected that with this fundamental "yes" to the modern era all tensions would be dispelled and that the "openness towards the world" accordingly achieved would transform everything into pure harmony, had underestimated the inner tensions as well as the contradictions inherent in the modern epoch.
They had underestimated the perilous frailty of human nature which has been a threat to human progress in all the periods of history and in every historical constellation. These dangers, with the new possibilities and new power of man over matter and over himself, did not disappear but instead acquired new dimensions: a look at the history of the present day shows this clearly.
In our time too, the Church remains a "sign that will be opposed" (Lk 2: 34) - not without reason did Pope John Paul II, then still a Cardinal, give this title to the theme for the Spiritual Exercises he preached in 1976 to Pope Paul VI and the Roman Curia. The Council could not have intended to abolish the Gospel's opposition to human dangers and errors.
On the contrary, it was certainly the Council's intention to overcome erroneous or superfluous contradictions in order to present to our world the requirement of the Gospel in its full greatness and purity.
Lionel: With the false premise the dogma EENS has been made obsolete. The Gospel has been changed and rejected.
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The steps the Council took towards the modern era which had rather vaguely been presented as "openness to the world", belong in short to the perennial problem of the relationship between faith and reason that is re-emerging in ever new forms. The situation that the Council had to face can certainly be compared to events of previous epochs.
Lionel: There is a rupture between faith and reason when a false premise is used to interpret the Council. The conclusion would have to be non traditional.
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In his First Letter, St Peter urged Christians always to be ready to give an answer (apo-logia) to anyone who asked them for the logos, the reason for their faith (cf. 3: 15). This meant that biblical faith had to be discussed and come into contact with Greek culture and learn to recognize through interpretation the separating line but also the convergence and the affinity between them in the one reason, given by God.
When, in the 13th century through the Jewish and Arab philosophers, Aristotelian thought came into contact with Medieval Christianity formed in the Platonic tradition and faith and reason risked entering an irreconcilable contradiction, it was above all St Thomas Aquinas who mediated the new encounter between faith and Aristotelian philosophy, thereby setting faith in a positive relationship with the form of reason prevalent in his time. There is no doubt that the wearing dispute between modern reason and the Christian faith, which had begun negatively with the Galileo case, went through many phases, but with the Second Vatican Council the time came when broad new thinking was required.
Lionel: Broad new thinking was possible only with the false premise. A new theology had to be created to end 'the narrow thinking' of EENS. So they created a new theology by confusing what is invisible as visible. Pope Paul VI supported the narrative and so did Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger.No one corrected the error for 55 years.
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Its content was certainly only roughly traced in the conciliar texts, but this determined its essential direction, so that the dialogue between reason and faith, particularly important today, found its bearings on the basis of the Second Vatican Council.
Lionel: Even a school boy would know that Vatican Council II interpreted with a false premise creates a rupture between faith and reason and puts the Church in a new, innovative direction. The Church has lost is bearings and Catholics have lost their identity.
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This dialogue must now be developed with great openmindedness but also with that clear discernment that the world rightly expects of us in this very moment. Thus, today we can look with gratitude at the Second Vatican Council: if we interpret and implement it guided by a right hermeneutic, it can be and can become increasingly powerful for the ever necessary renewal of the Church.
Lionel: How can there be a renewal of the Church with Cushingite theology ? The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith and the Diocese of Manchester, USA have officially informed the religious community Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, New Hampshire, USA that they cannot make a Profession of Faith using the Athanasius Creed. That says it all.
A cardinal at Propaganda Fide, Vatican personally told me that the Syllabus of Errors was no more relevant. This was also the view of Cardinal Ratzinger at that time. In March 2016 Pope Benedict announced that the EENS of the missionaries of the 16th century was made obsolete with Vatican Council II, as interpreted by him.
Same Church ?! -Lionel Andrades
Rome, December 22, 2005
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Rome Life Forum 2020 speakers use an irrational premise, inference and conclusion to interpret the Catechism of the Catholic Church (1994) to create a rupture with Tradition ( EENS, Syllabus of Errors of Pius IX, Catechism of Pope Pius X etc).
CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH (1994) CONTRADICTS FEENEYITE EENS ONLY WHEN AN IRRATIONAL PREMISE IS USED.
-Lionel Andrades
IRRATIONAL PREMISE, INFERENCE AND CONCLUSION OF THE CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH (1994) (Graphics)
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FEBRUARY 11, 2020
Rome Life Forum 2020 speakers interpret Vatican Council II with the irrational premise, inference and conclusion to create a false rupture with Tradition, the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus, the Syllabus of Errors, the Athanasius Creed etc.
https://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2020/02/rome-life-forum-2020-speakers-interpret.html
All the books on Vatican Council II in general are written with a false premise, inference and conclusion and so are the books by the Lefebvrists, Bishop Athanasius Schneider, Dr. Taylor Marshall, Chris Ferrara, the last Fr. Nicholas Gruner, Roberto dei Mattei, Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre.They all have an error.
All the books on Vatican Council II in general are written with a false premise, inference and conclusion and so are the books by the Lefebvrists, Bishop Athanasius Schneider, Dr. Taylor Marshall, Chris Ferrara, the last Fr. Nicholas Gruner, Roberto dei Mattei, Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre.They all have an error.-Lionel Andrades
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50 years of Vatican Council II - drama is over : the Council, EENS, Creeds, Catechisms and BOD, BOB and I.I can be interpreted rationally
50 years of Vatican Council II drama is over : the Council, EENS, Creeds, Catechisms and BOD, BOB and I.I can be interpreted rationally.
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-Lionel Andrades
Michael Sean Winters, Massimo Faggioli, John Allen jr and Joshua McElwee agree that even though Yves Congar, Karl Rahner, Richard Cushing and Joseph Ratzinger were there at Vatican Council II. the Council can be interpreted with the rational premise, inference and conclusion. Then it will be in harmony with the past exclusivist ecclesiology of the Church, an ecumenism of return and 16th century extra ecclesiam nulla salus(EENS), with no known exceptions. None of them are disputing this.
https://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2020/02/michael-sean-winters-massimo-faggioli.html
All the speakers at the Rome Forum 2020 need to interpret Vatican Council II, the Creeds and Catechisms, EENS and BOD, BOB and I.I without the irrational premise, inference and conclusion to create a hermeneutic of continuity with Tradition.
https://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2020/02/all-speakers-at-rome-forum-2020-need-to.html
Father John Zuhlsdorf irrationally interprets Vatican Council II, extra ecclesiam nulla salus (EENS), the Creeds and Catechisms and BOD,BOB and I.I like Massimo Faggioli, Michael Sean Winters and John Allen jr.: they use the false premise, inference and conclusion.
https://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2020/02/father-john-zuhlsdorf-irrationally.html
TERMS CLARIFIED
BOD( Baptism of Desire . Case of the unknown cathechumen who desires the baptism of water but dies before he receives it and is allegedly saved and now in Heaven)
BOB (Baptism of Blood. The case of unknown person who is in Heaven as a martyr without the baptism of water)
I.I (Invincible ignorance: The case of an unknown non Catholics who is in Heaven without faith and baptism and instead in invincible ignorance.)
LG 8 ( Lumen Gentium 8: The case of the unknown person saved outside the Church with 'elements of sanctification and truth' or where the true Church of Christ allegedly subsists.
LG 14 (Lumen Gentium 14: Baptism of Desire . Case of the unknown cathechumen who desires the baptism of water but dies before he receives it and is allegedly saved and now in Heaven)
LG 16 ( Lumen Gentium 16: The case of the unknown person saved outside the Church in invincible ignorance and who is now in Heaven without faith and the baptism of water)
UR 3 (Unitatitis Redintigratiio 3, Vatican Council II : The case of the unknown Christian, who is saved in his religions without Catholic faith or the baptism of water in the Catholic Church and is allegedly known to someone on earth who has seen him or her in Heaven).
NA 2( Nostra Aetate 2: The case of the unknown non Catholic saved outside the Catholic Church without faith and baptism. He or she is saved with good and holy things in other religion or with the a ray of that Truth which enlightens all mankind.
GS 22 (Gaudium et Specs 22. The case of the unknown non Catholic who is saved outside the Catholic Church. He or she is saved without faith and baptism but with goodwill.
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